Cable Myths Continued

[Cal Blacksmith]

It has been a long time since I was a "regular" on the boards, the wire debate raged then and I see it is still going strong now.

I guess what I don't understand is why anyone would care about how someone else spends their money?

I fall in the realest camp I guess, I have no problem with going along with the electrical point of view that everything can have an affect on the circuit and I have no problem with the point of view that says that there are so many things that affect the end product that the very small part that the wires play esp speaker wires, the low voltage interconnects I agree a little more with, just do not have a huge part when you take room treatments, placements of speakes, even source material into account.

Hey, if you have the money and can hear the difference, even if it is only in the grey matter, go ahead and spend the money.

I for one have a lot of places that need attention before I even start to think of multi $K speaker wire,..... if ever.

It is the weekend, enjoy guys

[Mallette]

Come'on Cal, Kaiser...he just wants to take your picture.

Dave

[Mallette]

Mark, I said it was "tortured" because in my entire life I've never heard a person vocalize a memory recall based on a smell that way. They don't say "smells of age, linen, cigarettes, with overtones of talcum powder..." they say "...it reminds me of my grandmother..." and such. The objectivity might want to explore WHY it reminded him of his grandmother, but he would not say "No it doesn't, you are a fraud..."

It did not work for me to carry your line of thinking.

Dave

[Deang]

I think it's great. I almost left the forum a few months ago over my increasing levels of frustration related to this very thing. I'm so sick of the REAL bullshit, and I think it's great that Mark is calling everyone out. So what is the "real bullshit"? It's the idea that anyone in this hobby actually believes and puts into practice the conclusions that ABX and DBT bring, for if they did, most of the equipment profiles would sure look a lot different than they do.

You know, they did a huge capacitor shootout up here at Parts Express once, and I don't think anyone could hear the difference between an electrolytic and a film type in a tweeter filter. So of course, everyone quit using film types and just started using electrolytics, right?

All proper working amplifiers sound identical, regardless of cost. Don't look at me like that, I'm telling the truth! If you spent more than a couple hundred bucks on an amp, you apparently wasted a lot of money.

And finally, if the distance from your loudspeaker to your amp is 12 feet or less, and you're using lamp cord - you spent too much! 18 AWG will rock your world.

Here's my challenge to all of you meter reading objectivists - go as cheap as possible and break out the coat hangers - BECAUSE YOU WON'T HEAR A DIFFERENCE!

There are only two possible conclusions: many of you are either hypocrites or stupid.

[Mallette]

OK, Dean, so it's good that Mark is saying "You can't be an audiophile if you are satisfied."

What you are saying completely eludes me.

I am a "friend of sound." My music room is filled with friendly sound. I've nothing "new and improved" though some things have had to be replaced over the decades. My 40 year old Klipschorns are fundamentally unimprovable and my ancient DynaQuad is as well. My 40 year old Empire and 30 year old Shure arms...well, I could go on.

This isn't a "hobby" for me. It's a PASSION. But I still love PWKs "Ho Hum, another major breakthrough..." line. I just built a pretty state of the art digital rig, 4th generation of my MBS digital audio computer. Even that isn't really audibly better than my original with the Card Deluxe of 2001.

Why is it one can't be an audiophile if you are happy with your system?

Maybe I am a euphonisist or something,

Dave

[Ski Bum]

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Edited February 11, 2014 by Ski Bum

[Ski Bum]

So Dean get's to call a large portion of the forum stupid or hypocritical?

If that's the best you have, Dean, you lose. And quite contrary to your characterization of his efforts as somehow heroic, Mark has been losing credibility in similar fashion throughout the thread by using the same tactics. You two really need to grow the **** up.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/belief_engine

[Mallette]

I've had no time to catch up, but I'd like to suggest a bit of more music and less talk. Be subjective, be objective.

What do you think of the engineering of the files to be found here.

Given all the talking about how we describe the fundamental qualities of recordings, hearing some real comments on something we've all heard in common might be instructive.

Dave

[jacksonbart]

I like a cable with walk in closets and a clerestory, really adds to the brightness and spaciousness.

[Ski Bum]

I think this thread has officially broken the forum.

[Mallette]

It's a fair assessment, but you are creating your own definition of "audiophile." Just why do you figure that my being satisfied with "accurate" as opposed to some state of constantly looking for some minute "improvement" that makes me not a "lover of sound?" There is nothing in the etymology of that word to suggest a person cannot be described by it who is happy with an audio system

Dave

[mungkiman]

It's a fair assessment, but you are creating your own definition of "audiophile." Just why do you figure that my being satisfied with "accurate" as opposed to some state of constantly looking for some minute "improvement" that makes me not a "lover of sound?" There is nothing in the etymology of that word to suggest a person cannot be described by it who is happy with an audio system

Dave

Agreed. Welcome back to the thread.

[DrWho]

I think it's great. I almost left the forum a few months ago over my increasing levels of frustration related to this very thing. I'm so sick of the REAL bullshit, and I think it's great that Mark is calling everyone out. So what is the "real bullshit"? It's the idea that anyone in this hobby actually believes and puts into practice the conclusions that ABX and DBT bring, for if they did, most of the equipment profiles would sure look a lot different than they do.

.....

There are only two possible conclusions: many of you are either hypocrites or stupid.

What exactly are the conclusions of ABX and DBT testing being referred to here?

Dean seems pretty worked up about things he / others can't prove they perceive. And I'm not saying that differences can't be / aren't being perceived, but any enlightened critical thinker would have no problem accepting that there is a minimum level of difference required to pass those tests. In fact, this is a litmus test I use for defining whether a difference is major or minor...

Now that said - and maybe because I'm more comfortable with that kind of listening (or maybe there's some skill involved?), I've never had a problem identifying different amplifiers or capacitors in ABX / DBT testing when there are solid technical reasons that differences should be heard. I think people sometimes get hung up on the whole "capacitor type" thing without actually understanding why/how different components are different....and then those differences may or may not manifest themselves depending on their very specific application.

Anyways, I'm curious how it fits into Dean's bubble when others claim they can hear a difference in the ABX / DBT testing...

And then I keep coming back to the window analogy where some are talking about the quality of the glass while there is mud all over the window...or maybe just a screen on the other side would be a bit less dramatic.

[Zen Traveler]

Dave,

Ok, now let's just take the next step. Would it be fair to say that "pursuing an ultimate personal vision of sound by trying and trying new or different components in search of that sound" is NOT a hobby you are involved in?

What we know about people called audiophiles, like readers of Stereophile magazine, is that they DO pursue ever better sound by at least sometimes changing things, or trying new things. "I hear that Kimber Kables have really nice detail, and I want to try them." They value subjective critique, they swap opinions, they form a community of like interests revolving around "improving the sound." That's not you, right?

As I understand the words "like and don't like". There is no room for "like better." If like is good enough place to stop, then like better doesn't exist. Correct?

This is where I left off. Is that a good and fair assessment?

Hmm. I guess I considered myself an "audiophile" but admit it doesn't bother me for one to argue that I'm not. I actually spent several years auditioning speakers and when I found the set I liked and felt I couldn't "upgrade" from, only concerned myself with how good the source material sounded coming from the speakers at the Volume level I was accustomed to listening.

Again, I have no opinion if wires or cables could make a difference.

[Zen Traveler]

What exactly are the conclusions of ABX and DBT testing being referred to here?

He is saying that believers in ABX would have no need for much of the gear they are touting in their systems.

I agree with this statement.

[DrWho]

What exactly are the conclusions of ABX and DBT testing being referred to here?

He is saying that believers in ABX would have no need for much of the gear they are touting in their systems. IN ABX testing, you quickly get to a cheap receiver instead of a $5000 McIntosh or BAT amplifier. He's challenging the hypocrisy of criticizing people for choosing a $300 wire, but owning a $10,000 stack of electronics, if you supposedly believe in ABX testing. You can't beat others over the head for the same excesses you commit.

I understand the reasoning behind the original statement, but I disagree with the conclusions on two points:

1) I believe differences between the gear can be heard during the right ABX test.

2) Despite 1, a minimum level of difference is required for a listener to pass an ABX test - that doesn't mean there aren't smaller differences that will be realized.

Btw, I thought we weren't going to make the comparisons based on price of the equipment?

[Zen Traveler]

Ya know, there is a lot of psychology and conditioning that goes into these decisions. but how valuable would it be know how well any of the "testers" do on standard Hearing tests? Would that play a role or is that not important?

Edited February 11, 2014 by tkdamerica

[DrWho]

I've never had a problem identifying different amplifiers or capacitors in ABX / DBT testing when there are solid technical reasons that differences should be heard.

Define "solid technical reason" so that I can understand what you mean.

I put that in as a disclaimer that sometimes you should be able to hear a difference between caps and sometimes you shouldn't.

A very specific example is the nature of a ceramic capacitor. There are different types of dielectrics available within the ceramic family, and different types have different temperature behaviors. However, they also have different voltage behaviors too. In other words, the value of the capacitor changes with temperature and voltage, and that difference is dependent upon the structure of the capacitor. To make life easy, we categorize them as NPO, X5V, Y5V, etc... if anyone wants to take a quick look at datasheets to see what's happening

We could also go a step further and take into account the parasitic inductance from the packaging of the part. This creates a resonant tank circuit, which shows up in an impedance plot - normally we see the impedance get lower as we go higher in frequency, but there's a point where it drops lower than it should (the resonant frequency) and then the impedance starts to rise.

There is also the hysteresis in the flexing of the part, and even quantum level jumps that affect the sound quality.

This is one very specific example, but it highlights a few points:

1) We can calculate with great degrees of accuracy the extent to which the capacitance can change, and then the resultant effects on the circuit behavior. With this knowledge, it then becomes an exercise in understanding the audible result of that difference. For example, a power-supply bypass capacitor is going to impart less change to the circuit than a capacitor setting the corner frequency of a filter. It wouldn't be hard to argue that the changes on the power-supply would therefor be less audible (if not audible at all) than the filter corner capacitor (which could easily be very audible with the wrong capacitor.

2) Selecting the right part for the application involves understanding of that part's real behaviors - not the cost of the part. Sometimes the cheaper part is actual better: according to the technical understanding of the real device behavior (not the idealized circuit model).

3) I have never heard actual capacitor non-linearities discussed in the debates about capacitor quality. There is a huge pool of public knowledge available in this arena and I think some of the "pro crazy capacitor" people would benefit from understanding the technical differences. Some of it may actually coincide with your subjective results! Go figure.... Also, the technical understanding will help you identify where you are most likely to hear the difference when listening to music.

4) There seems to be a violent avoidance of knowledge from the subjectivists....almost as if somehow learning how things actually work will somehow taint their impressions of the world.

What I long for is subjective discussion that isn't blinded by self-delusion and the pride of having "golden ears".

[Deang]

What exactly are the conclusions of ABX and DBT testing being referred to here?

He is saying that believers in ABX would have no need for much of the gear they are touting in their systems. IN ABX testing, you quickly get to a cheap receiver instead of a $5000 McIntosh or BAT amplifier. He's challenging the hypocrisy of criticizing people for choosing a $300 wire, but owning a $10,000 stack of electronics, if you supposedly believe in ABX testing. You can't beat others over the head for the same excesses you commit.

lol, thank you.

No, you guys aren't "stupid" or "hypocrites". I was using a literary device called "hyperbole".

[DrWho]

What exactly are the conclusions of ABX and DBT testing being referred to here?

He is saying that believers in ABX would have no need for much of the gear they are touting in their systems. IN ABX testing, you quickly get to a cheap receiver instead of a $5000 McIntosh or BAT amplifier. He's challenging the hypocrisy of criticizing people for choosing a $300 wire, but owning a $10,000 stack of electronics, if you supposedly believe in ABX testing. You can't beat others over the head for the same excesses you commit.

I understand the reasoning behind the original statement, but I disagree with the conclusions on two points:

Btw, I thought we weren't going to make the comparisons based on price of the equipment?

But price is often the resentful argument of the ABX crowd. Just read their posts about snake oil. It almost always includes references to "high prices." This is part of the hypocrisy. And we were talking about Dean's post, which is about hypocrisy.

I would argue the hypocrisy goes both ways....

You have guys like ______ that delude themselves into thinking they hear a difference because of _____ . Feel free to fill in the blanks. I won't call out specific people or scenarios because there is a pride component that would dilute the point I'm trying to make.

Let me sum it up like this....the hardcore subjectivists for some reason have this burning desire to be known as ones that can hear the difference. There is this sense of pride that even creates emotions of fear under certain circumstances. I know I've gotten nervous about listening tests at work and wondering how I stack up against those with proven hearing abilities. I would love to have my artistic impression influence the products we design at work.

Btw, I'm not saying all subjectivists delude themselves either. I'm only pointing out that there are motivations / emotions that can bring that about.