Will my receiver be adequate for my new Klipsch speakers? Can a bad amp break speakers?

[ppoint]

Hi guys,

Newbie question. I have a small home theater setup consisting of the Klipsch HD500 (5.1 satellite/sub) speakers, powered by the Yamaha YMC-500 receiver.

I haven't been satisfied with the HD500 for music, so I'm upgrading the speakers. Tomorrow, I'm picking up a pair of Klipsch Fortes, with Klipsch KG 1.5 for surrounds, and the Klipsch KV-3 center. No subwoofer in the new setup; I'm confident that the Fortes will do far better than the 8" sub in the HD500 kit. I'm looking forward to it!

Now, I am concerned if the Yamaha YMC-500 will be adequate for the new speaker setup. It's a small receiver and low power. Frustratingly, it's own published specs are very unclear. All the manual says is:

• Power Consumption: 50 W

• Maximum Power Consumption

5 ch, 10% THD: 170 W

Sound and Vision did a review of the YMC-500/700 a few years ago, and they published their lab results here: http://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-neohd-ymc-700-media-controller-ht-labs-measures. Their key findings:

• Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
  0.1% distortion at 15.7 watts
  1% distortion at 21.6 watts
• Speaker output with two channels driving 8 ohm loads:
  0.1% distortion at 28.6 watts
  1% distortion at 45.1 watts
• Speaker output with two channels driving 4 ohms:
  0.1% distortion at 23.3 watts
  1% distortion at 50.4 watts

I'm not sure if this little amp will handle the larger speakers well. I know Klipsch speakers are efficient and don't need much power, but still.

Adding to my concern: I don't know what the effect may be on the speakers if I drive them with an inadequate amp. My first intuition is to simply try it out when I pick up the new speakers tomorrow. But is it possible to damage speakers if the amp is terribly inadequate?

TL;DR: I have two questions:

1. Is the low-power Yamaha YMC-500 adequate to drive Klipsch Forte speakers (fronts), Klipsch KG 1.5 (rears), and Klipsch KV-3 (center)?
2. If I'm not sure, is it okay to try driving these speakers with the YMC-500? Or do I have to worry about damaging the speakers if the amp is that inadequate?

Thank you for your time.

[billybob]

Welcome!

I would not be afraid to try it! Just do not try to achieve excessive volume until you check it out.

Edited February 20, 2014 by billybob

[Schu]

It will drive them no problem.... is it the best solution for ht, certainly not.

Klipsch speakers are HIGHLY efficent so they only need a watt or two to achieve 100db or more. They thing is, ht really requires some head room because of the way a movie delivers sound.... in peaks and spikes.

[ppoint]

Welcome!

I would not be afraid to try it! Just do not try to achieve excessive volume until you check it out.

About "checking it out"... what would I be looking / listening for?

[billybob]

Welcome!

I would not be afraid to try it! Just do not try to achieve excessive volume until you check it out.

About "checking it out"... what would I be looking / listening for?

Distortion, crackling noise, anything unusual when delivering extreme volume. For HT they should be fine...or other. Hook them up correctly and you should be good to go.

Let us know please.

Edited February 20, 2014 by billybob

[ppoint]

Thank you both for the welcome! And the fast responses!

It will drive them no problem.... is it the best solution for ht, certainly not.

Klipsch speakers are HIGHLY efficent so they only need a watt or two to achieve 100db or more. They thing is, ht really requires some head room because of the way a movie delivers sound.... in peaks and spikes.

I gather that the concern is about how "clean" the power is in that first watt or two? What happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

[Schu]

Thank you both for the welcome! And the fast responses!

what happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

That doesnt make any sense to me

[billybob]

You are on the right path, with a pretty good understanding. Just do not overdrive with the volume into distortion,etc...you are good to go.

[billybob]

You are on the right path, with a pretty good understanding. Just do not overdrive with the volume into distortion,etc...you are good to go.

Looks like a prety solid unit. I am listening on a 45 watt per channel system. It should sound good.

[ppoint]

what happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

That doesnt make any sense to me

Sorry, like I said, I'm pretty new to all this. What I meant is: is there a a sort of "red line" in amp output that, if exceeded, causes bad things to happen?

[ppoint]

Okay. Well, the consensus here seems to be that it should be okay to give this a try. I'll let the community know of my findings once I get the new speakers set up.

[derrickdj1]

Hi PPoint, That avr/amp is not that strong. The speakers don't take many watts to run but, for HT, there are dynamic peaks. That could be a problem at high volume.It may be worth considering and higher power avr down the road. 21 watts for 5 ch. driven in HT is a little light IMHO.

A Heresey can reach reference with 53 watts and KLF 20 around 57. A Cornwall will take 27 to reach 105 db at around 12-13 ft. This data is from the AVS forum on : Audio/speakers/high sensitivity speakers and reference level, http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387083/list-of-reference-level-high-sensitivity-spl-speakers.

Edited February 20, 2014 by derrickdj1

[babadono]

what happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

That doesnt make any sense to me

Sorry, like I said, I'm pretty new to all this. What I meant is: is there a a sort of "red line" in amp output that, if exceeded, causes bad things to happen?

ppoint,

Yes there is a redline. If the amplifier is pushed beyond its capabilities it will clip the positive and negative peaks of the electrical signal going to the speakers. Without getting too technical, let's just say this is distortion. If the speakers are still in their mechanical limitations meaning they can handle more power than the amp can deliver they will try to reproduce these clipped or squared off waveforms which they cannot do. Think about it, the speaker (a cone speaker to keep it simple) is moving back and forth to the undulating music signal it is receiving, compressing and rarefying the air as it makes the sound wave that we hear. At its maximum forward or backward excursion it is sent this clipped signal, what is it going to do? It is going to try to stop and stay at this amount of excursion as long as the clipped wave lasts. When the cone is not moving no sound is being made. Also the clipped waveform is DC voltage which generally speakers do not like.

[garyrc]

TL;DR: I have two questions:

1. Is the low-power Yamaha YMC-500 adequate to drive Klipsch Forte speakers (fronts), Klipsch KG 1.5 (rears), and Klipsch KV-3 (center)?
2. If I'm not sure, is it okay to try driving these speakers with the YMC-500? Or do I have to worry about damaging the speakers if the amp is that inadequate?

Thank you for your time.

You will be getting the 15.7 watts (or less, if the magazine was generous). For sedate music, that's more than enough with Fortes, but people tend to play some movies loud, and some films contain unexpected peaks, as does music of many kinds. 100 watts RMS for each channel, while all channels are operating, is the minimum industry standard for solid state. The Fortes may not need quite as much, but buy that power level, or greater, anyway. It's hard to get a really good receiver or amp with less than 100 w.p.c., except for some esoteric tube amps.

For movies you need a subwoofer for one big reason: The movie people put special material (Low Frequency Effects, LFE) out through the subwoofer output only. Sometimes this material will be mixed into the front R & L speakers, usually ONLY if you are running the movie in 2 channel (and have selected 2 channel or 2 channel surround on the disk (now a rairity) or in the receiver), and then at a lower level than you would get through a subwoofer.

Speakers can be damaged by too much power or by too little power, although the latter is controversial on this forum. Amplifier clipping can take out tweeters, and white noise, pink noise, or, especially, steady test tones at too high a volume can damage speakers. A store I frequented once lost a pair of Klipschorns, punching along at about 120 dB -- for a few moments -- with Michael Jackson's Thriller. Man, was the salesperson embarrassed!

Edited February 20, 2014 by Garyrc

[garyrc]

What happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

The amps will clip, and may harm or destroy the speakers, especially tweeters.

[ClaudeJ1]

Thank you both for the welcome! And the fast responses!

It will drive them no problem.... is it the best solution for ht, certainly not.

Klipsch speakers are HIGHLY efficent so they only need a watt or two to achieve 100db or more. They thing is, ht really requires some head room because of the way a movie delivers sound.... in peaks and spikes.

I gather that the concern is about how "clean" the power is in that first watt or two? What happens to amps (or speakers) if HT sound calls for spikes that are greater than what the amp can provide?

I used a battery powered 6 Watt chip amp with a battery powered CD player is input to demo the sale of my Khorns using some very dynamic music. NORMAL listening for a Khorn a pretty robust level is about 1/4 of a Watt. Don't worry, be happy. When I first got my Khorns, I designed a peak level meter that was pretty fast. Hitting 10 Watt peaks drove me out of the room loud and almost got me evicted. Any more questions, hombre?

[djk]

" At its maximum forward or backward excursion it is sent this clipped signal, what is it going to do? It is going to try to stop and stay at this amount of excursion as long as the clipped wave lasts. When the cone is not moving no sound is being made. Also the clipped waveform is DC voltage which generally speakers do not like."

"The amps will clip, and may harm or destroy the speakers, especially tweeters."

Totaly incorrect.

Amplifier clipping causes no damage what so ever, unless you exceed the long term average power limit of the driver, or it causes mechanical damage.

Clipping below 40mS in duration is generally inaudible to the average person.

The APT Model 1 had an indicator labled 'distortion alert', it would flash if the duration of the clipping was in excess of 40mS. A Peavey with DDT (distortion detecting) will go into limiting when the duration of the clipping exceeds 100mS. The Dynaco Dynaguard had a delay that was dependent on the overdrive applied, but would allow clipping for tens of mS before pulling back the average power leve (user programable).

" A store I frequented once lost a pair of Klipschorns, punching along at about 120 dB -- for a few moments -- with Michael Jackson's Thriller. Man, was the salesperson embarrassed!"

Really? What year was this? I used to demo Klipschorns with a Carver M1.5T (750W/8Ω on program material) until the 'headroom exhaused light came on (14dB past the point where it would have clipped had it not had a clipping limiter built in). On program material with High HF content this would cause the HF fuse to blow. Prior to the AK series networks there were no fuses, but the zener diode protectors did the job. Be careful with a sub-harmonic synthesizer however, big amps will wound the woofer with high power below 35hz.

Edited February 21, 2014 by djk

[garyrc]

" A store I frequented once lost a pair of Klipschorns, punching along at about 120 dB -- for a few moments -- with Michael Jackson's Thriller. Man, was the salesperson embarrassed!"

Really? What year was this? I used to demo Klipschorns with a Carver M1.5T (750W/8Ω on program material) until the 'headroom exhaused light came on (14dB past the point where it would have clipped had it not had a clipping limiter built in). On program material with High HF content this would cause the HF fuse to blow. Prior to the AK series networks there were no fuses, but the zener diode protectors did the job. Be careful with a sub-harmonic synthesizer however, big amps will wound the woofer with high power below 35hz.

It was about 1984 or so --- I think. It was when Thriller was very popular. I think the amp may have been a big Crown. About 4 years earlier, when I bought my first Klipschorns, they advised me to wire fuses in line with the speakers. So did a store a few miles away. I did, but I don't have fuses on my current AK4s; I assume there is some protection built in.

In what city did you used to demo Klipschorns? Were you on a sales floor? If it was in the S.F. bay area, I wonder if I knew you. At one point, there were (approx) 7 stores there that carried Khorns (Pro-Audio, Berkeley Custom, Christopher's, The Listening Post, Poor Richard's, The Good Guys (believe it or not) and another one (name forgotten) that had the K77s detached and placed in line with the K55s.

Sic Transit Gloria.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Garyrc

[djk]

I worked at the Audio Room in Cedar Rapids Iowa off-and-on from 1974 through 1988.

We became a Klipsch dealer in 1978, and quickly became the largest single Klipsch dealer in the USA.

Prior to this we were the largest JBL dealer in the Midwest, including Chicago, St Louis, KC, Twin Cities, etc.

I wore many hats there over time, including sales manager and service manager.

One day the owner called me on the carpet and complained: 'all you ever sell is Yamaha, Ortofon, and Klipsch'. I said: 'isn't it great, we have no competition on those brands locally and can make a decent profit on them'. Crown, Sony, JBL, etc. set up dealers all around us and eventually all their sales went flat. National sales managers are all brain-dead to anything beyond the next quarter's sales. We had a total of seven sales people, and in one four month period I sold more than all the other salesmen combined.

It's really hard to hurt a Klipsch speaker, but it can be done.

[001]

For movies you need a subwoofer for one big reason: The movie people put special material (Low Frequency Effects, LFE) out through the subwoofer output only. Sometimes this material will be mixed into the front R & L speakers, usually ONLY if you are running the movie in 2 channel (and have selected 2 channel or 2 channel surround on the disk (now a rairity) or in the receiver), and then at a lower level than you would get through a subwoofer.

actually every AVR i have seen will send ALL the LFE info to the front L & R speakers if you tell the receiver "sub off/no." its only split or designated to the LFE output if you select sub on. i used KG 5.5 & epic cf-4 as front mains for movies & they have excellent bass down to their limits. fortes are rated to 34 or 32hz, they will be great for movies. but i do suggest getting a better receiver. the one he has is from a "home theater package" i think & is made to power those little satelite speakers that dont need bass, the included sub handles that.

so i would look for a decent used 5.1 or 7.1 receiver. if you are on a budget a 60-80 watt per channel would be fine. i would search for onkyo or yamaha for budget & quality, stay away from sony or technics as they are usually cheaper products. of course go with better brands if you can afford it, but i feel the 5-10 year old onkyos are the best bang for the buck. for a couple hundred bucks or less you can get an 80w/ch onkyo 605 or 676 on ebay or craigslist. that will be all you need for great music & movies on a tight budget.

Edited February 21, 2014 by klipschfancf4