Max2 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 no offense intended to the OP or klipsch in general, as i am a long time klipsch owner & fan & personally prefer most of their speakers. BUT my first observation to the comparison of what the OP heard & his la scalas is: of course the bass wasnt as good as la scallas, its a 10" woofer in a sealed or bass reflex cabinet vs a 15" woofer in a folded horn. that should be obvious. myself & other klipsch owners, just like any owner of another brand speaker or make of car etc, are somewhat biased, you are used to the sound you hear from the horns & are comparing your used prices with new "high end" stuff. so yes, dollar for dollar you like your speakers better. however, not mi bet the high $$ speakers you heard had much more accurate mid bass & the highs were very smooth etc etc. they dont require hundreds or thousands of dollars of upgrades & mods like so many klipsch speakers can & do. plus the cabinets were probably real solid wood,df with a micro thin veneer. the crossovers are most likely made with the high dollar components, not the cheapest available & needing upgrades to better quality. all things to consider that make the higher $$ speakers cost more & arguably sound better/different. agian, i am a very happy owner of numerous klipsch speakers, however i can & do appreciate the other brands that are out there. i understand why some things cost more than others. main example, i just bought some k-horns, thought for sure they would be the holy grail of speakers & i would be 100% pleased with them... welll sorry to say, i am not. they no doubt have their strong points but can have a very harsh midrange & tweeter. its no secret, in fact many people/companies make a living selling things to fix or address this very common issue. how are $9,000 speaker so inadequite in these areas? i've heard the adages that they are so revealing that unless your recording is perfect they sound like crap or the room or the gear etc etc... well, why is it that other brands can sound so good with less than perfect recordings & rooms etc? seems to me that should be an attribute of speakers if they can still sound excellent on poor recordings or less than perfect gear. if i pay thousands of dollars for a "flagship" speaker but need to spend thousands more in mods & upgrades or buy ridiculous priced tube amps, then how good are they really? i know some will take that the wrong way, just pointing out how i see it & that you need to compare apples to apples when you try to discount other makes of things. of course a $250,000 porsche can be smoked in the quarter mile by a 20,000 muscle car, but dont forget about the handling, braking, styleing & technology that goes into that porsche, not to mention the lifestyle it represents for the limited few that can afford it. its all relative. Sorry about the sour grapes and your newly bought K-horns, you sound a little disappointed. Maybe you should post the gear you're running, your room size, X-overs, etc. A few changes may make a huge difference. Some things to point out. I think the OP was saying he wasn't hearing $18K worth of sound and thats all. Having said that, the Sophia's have a flatter and broader frequency range than the LS's. If we can't compare an 18K pair of bass reflex speakers that go a full octave lower than a pair of horn loaded LaScalas, then what is the point? Better yet, why don't we ask the speaker builder? Good sound from bad recordings? Bad recordings are just that. If you can't hear the difference in a heavily compressed track when compared to something better, then your speakers that you are used to arent revealing the "truth." The horns bring out the details and the subtleties you don't notice or hear with a conventional speaker and 99.9% of the owners here own them because of that. As far as solid wood cabinets, not only will the resonance be very bad, solid wood is unstable, it won't stay true to size and shouldn't be used unless you are putting it on top of MDF, plywood or some other method. As far as tweaking your K's and being upset about about spending a little for this or that.... Well, 3K spent on a set of used K's or LS II's or whatever, leaves you a huge amount of leeway when comparing to dropping many, many, many times more on a speaker that has no following and no passion for others to offer other options for customizing or tailoring your sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 My theory is that some high end manufacturers charge an arm and a leg because they can. The more expensive an item is, the more desirable it is to some people. Some people naively think that more expensive automatically equates to better. Those of us that listen to Klipsch know better. Then there are also those people that want the more expensive items because it is more expensive. They want the “status symbol” – they want others to know that they can afford something expensive. Many companies prey on people like that and there must be a lot of people like that as those companies do thrive and their products do sell. I’ve relayed this story in the past but I’ll do it again here since we are talking about Wilson Audio. Several years ago, I had an extra pair of Klipschorns for sale. A gentleman stopped by to audition them. He told me that he had never heard Klipschorns before and was interesting in seeing what they were all about. He also told me that he worked in Real Estate and living/working in Orange County, he made a lot of money. He had only one hobby and it was audio, so he could basically buy just about anything he wanted, but as he was going to be potentially buying something from me he also made it clear he makes sure he gets value when he does make a purchase. He chose to buy used so that he could experiment to find what worked best and sell those items that he didn’t want without losing much if any money. I do not remember all of the gear he had at the time, but the speakers that would be getting replaced were Avantgarde Solos. I also remember he owned the Audio Research Reference preamplifier (a roughly $10k component at that time). He said he also had a lot of audiophile friends with expensive gear. I demoed the speakers to him using a wide variety of music. To say he was impressed would be an understatement. He wanted to know all of the components I had, down to the speaker wire I was using (basic wire from Parts Express). Not only did he decide to buy the Klipschorns, he offered to buy my entire setup, from source to speakers. He told me one of his friends owned a $100,000 system that consisted of Wilson Audio speakers. He flat out said my system sounded better! For reference, the associated components used during this demo was an original Juicy Music Peach preamplifier, Wright Sound WPA 3.5 2A3 SET amps, Theta Data Basic CD transport, and a Theta DS PRO II DAC. He kept in touch with me after buying the Klipschorns. In fact, he told me that when one of his friends found out he got Klipschorns his friend told him “you got the pigs, huh?” When that same friend came over to hear “the pigs,” I was told he too was impressed with the sound. Within the next few months, this same person also bought a pair of Rosewood Lacquer Belles from me and also a Fi X 2A3 SET amplifier. The bottom line is that while there are many speakers that cost magnitudes more, the higher end Klipsch offerings are truly world class performers. And yes, that includes my Klipschorns made in 1978. To anyone that disagrees with that, well let’s just say there is a reason PWK had those yellow buttons made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 He kept in touch with me after buying the Klipschorns. In fact, he told me that when one of his friends found out he got Klipschorns his friend told him “you got the pigs, huh?” When that same friend came over to hear “the pigs,” I was told he too was impressed with the sound. He would really go out of his mind if he heard my setup or some Jublees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I owned a pair of the original Sophias. I paid 6K on Agon and kept them for about 3 weeks. I sold them and didn't lose a penny. However, they just didn't do it for me. Good, but not great speakers. I ended up keeping my Piegas. Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) I suppose that you don't want me to say any more using this last phrase. Suffice it to say that all of what you say can be addressed, point by point. But you apparently don't want me to do that, so I won't. If there is anyone else here that does want an explanation for any point, I'd be happy to discuss it. Chris not at all, youre welcome to say anything you want. the last phrase was just that, a phrase or saying people use to mean take no offense from my statements, it was jus an opinion or thoughts on the matter & worth about 2 cents. same as what most other peoples opinions are worth. please touch on all the points you would like with your opinion. thats what forums are for, to exchange ideas & have debates. to address a few things said in reply to my post: i'm not making any assumptions about your personal system, simply said that comparing small 10" woofer speakers to a 15" folded horn behemoth of a speaker isnt apples to apples. the la scalla is an orange in that scenario. yes its louder & has more bass & is favored by many people, especially klipsch fans & owners. each person has different tastes in music & speakers. the crossovers in klipsch speakers are known to be on the cheaper side, thats why even when new, the caps were upgraded to high dollar ones like solen etc. the mid horn doesnt age, so it is what it is & many people hate them & replace the 400 or 401 with $500 wood horns & other drivers etc etc. my point was many people think as new they have "issues" & need to be upgraded for this or that reason. sure mdf probably resonates less than real wood, didnt question that that, point was real wood costs probably 5-10 times more than mdf, especially some of the exotic woods these high $$ speakers can have. all things that make them cost more, although probably nowhere near what they cost to build, i agree that they are probably grossly marked up. my k-horns sound very good too, & everyone that hears them likes them as well... i like them, i like most all klipsch speakers... thats why have owned almost 10 different ones over the years & have 3 pairs now. the comparison just seems a little uneven is all i was pointing out. thats why i said i know some will disagree with my comments... thats fine. not trying to razzle any feathers. & i am not disapointed in the k-horns either, no sour grapes. i understand my room may be a little small etc & they need absolutely perfect recordings. i also know the difference between very bad or compressed recordings, the point was there are many in betweens of recordings that should sound fine like they do on many other speakers... klipsch included. i can play the worst of cd's on the fortes or epics & they sound acceptable, or WAY better than the k horn. the k-horns are completely different & seem to have issues the forte or epic or other brand speakers dont. the comment i make about the k-horns is that up at louder levels they can sound harsh compared to others that simply do not. if the mid horns on the k-horn & la scalla was so good there wouldnt be so many replacement horns, from factory fitting wood upgrades to the crazy huge things i see & read about on here. i said upfront i am very happy with them, but many can critique the heck out of them, for everything they do good they do almost as much less than good. just as many professional reviews that back that up as there are good reviews. wasnt knocking anyones personal system or saying i like to spend $20 grand for little bookshelf speakers, i like my klipsch & plan to keep them for a long time but i also appreciate an expensive pair of some brand i have never heard of or can barely pronounce right. gear is as follows, still a work in progress but all decent quality s/s stuff. the rotel has been reviewed better than some amps 2 & 3 times its cost. adcom gtp-500ii preamp adcom gfa-555ii amp adcom gcd-600 cd-player decent cables & wires k-horns sealed correctly in concrete backed drywalled basement 13x23 room. also have rotell rb-990 amp & onkyo m-504 amp. they arent tube stuff or super high dollar but sound very good for mid-fi. Edited March 9, 2014 by klipschfancf4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) no offense intended to the OP or klipsch in general, as i am a long time klipsch owner & fan & personally prefer most of their speakers. BUT my first observation to the comparison of what the OP heard & his la scalas is: of course the bass wasnt as good as la scallas, its a 10" woofer in a sealed or bass reflex cabinet vs a 15" woofer in a folded horn. that should be obvious. i know some will take that the wrong way, just pointing out how i see it & that you need to compare apples to apples when you try to discount other makes of things. of course a $250,000 porsche can be smoked in the quarter mile by a 20,000 muscle car, but dont forget about the handling, braking, styleing & technology that goes into that porsche, not to mention the lifestyle it represents for the limited few that can afford it. its all relative. Your first observation is flawed, in that the technology used should not matter when comparing the two speakers. When an engineer or designer is given a certain budget to work with, or price point to work toward, he chooses the technology he believes will allow him to achieve the performance he's after, within those cost constraints. Saying an $18,000 speaker naturally has weak bass response because it has only a 10" woofer doesn't fly. When Acura built the NSX, nobody said "We can't compare it to a Ferrari because it only has a V-6." It was compared to other cars in its price range (about $80,000 in 1996), and it easily held its own, whether they had V-8s, V-12s, or whatever. Any expensive speaker should have audio performance commensurate with its price, whatever technology it uses. To put it another way, you wouldn't compare the performance of a car to that of a truck, because they are different types of vehicles, designed to do very different jobs. However, a speaker designed for listening to music in a home environment should be comparable with any other speaker built for the same purpose, if the prices are similar. As for cars, most Porsches cost much less than $250k, more typically $100k, and muscle cars cost much more than $20, more typically $40k plus. Also, Porsche does well in business because they have one of the largest profit margins per car. Edited March 9, 2014 by Islander 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Hey Klipschfancf4, It is possible that fully-loaded horn speakers are just not for you. Everyone has different tastes and we all hear differently as well, and that is OK. There could be other things going on besides that though. As you mentioned, your room might not be adequate for them. In the room I was using in my story above, it was a large room that opened up to the rest of the house and the sound was nothing short of magical. When I next had them set up in a different house, I had a smaller room and it was closed off from the rest of the house. I never was able to get that same level of performance and haven't figured out what the difference was. Unfortunately there were a lot of variables in play. It could be the room but I've also had some issues with some of my associated gear. It had been about 5 years in between this time where I didn't have my system set up due to a lack of a room suitable for Khorns. One other thing that I thought about was the crossovers are original and now are 36 years old, so it's probably well past time to replace them. I still got good sound, but the magical part was mostly missing. I have recently moved to another house once again and don't even have a room that they can be used in so they are just sittling idle. Now that I see your gear listing, I would have to think that this is not going to let the Klipschorns perform at their best. For fun, I once set up a Denon AVR receiver and I have to say the Klipschorns were very unimpressive. I would not buy them if that was how they were going to sound. I've used very good solid state with them (think Classe, Jeff Rowland, Threshold), but tube amplfiers did take them to another level. You don't necessarily have to spend a ton on tube amps thanks to the efficiency of Klipsch speakers. Those Wright Sound SET amps ran around $900 on the used market, although they are going to be harder to find nowadays. You may also want to check and see if there is anything wrong with your Khorns, especially if you bought them used. That could very well be the case if the Fortes or Epics are sounding way better. I have owned both of those and while both really are very good, solid speakers, neither measure up to the Khorn. Before you give up on the Khorns, I would suggest you see if you can find someone locally that does have them tuned in just right (good room, good gear, properly functioning, crossovers that are not aged like mine are now), and see if you do like them. My khorns are unmodified -- original as they came from the factory. With tube amplifiers, I have found that poor recordings sound better. Great recordings bring out the best in the Khorns as you can expect from any speaker (aside from the really bad stuff that can't resolve what a great recording provides). I have heard many pricey systems, some costing as much as a house, and I can't say that I have heard anything better, at least not by any significant amount that I would be able to differentiate with elapsed time. I have also been to some of the audio fests held in various places where you get to hear a lot of gear, and my comment above still stands. Note that the majority of the vendors at these fests typically run tube amps. I am fortunate in that I've discoved that Klipsch meets my needs and I don't have to spend gobs of money to get this level of performance, either in the speakers or the amplifiers because the speakers are so efficient. But again, not everyone will have the same taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 He kept in touch with me after buying the Klipschorns. In fact, he told me that when one of his friends found out he got Klipschorns his friend told him “you got the pigs, huh?” When that same friend came over to hear “the pigs,” I was told he too was impressed with the sound. He would really go out of his mind if he heard my setup or some Jublees! I have not heard the Jubilees yet but am hoping to someday. If they really are that much more than the Khorns, I'll likely be getting some. Don't know what you have but would not mind hearing that either. The sound I was getting, in that room, in that house, with that gear, was magical. If there is something even better, I can't imagine how that would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 He kept in touch with me after buying the Klipschorns. In fact, he told me that when one of his friends found out he got Klipschorns his friend told him “you got the pigs, huh?” When that same friend came over to hear “the pigs,” I was told he too was impressed with the sound. He would really go out of his mind if he heard my setup or some Jublees! Jubilee's.... nothing but pigs.....with lipstick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Jmon, if you ever get a bug in your ear to listen, there is at least one pair of Jubilee's in Littleton (?) Regardless of that accuracy, they are in the greater Denver area. There is another pair in Silverton during the tourist months. The pair in Silverton reside at what I hear is a nice restaurant and they play to the outdoor patio. Couple of nice guys too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) Any expensive speaker should have audio performance commensurate with its price, whatever technology it uses. This we agree on 100%. Witness the Mark Levinson's Daniel Hertz, $100,000 speakers with 18" woofer sub, 12"/100 db/Watt mid, and horn tweeter. I'm sure it would sound as good as all the accolades given it, EXCEPT when you look at VALUE. Where he probably had some big magnet PRO drivers custom made, along with a horn that looks a LOT like the horn in a Palladium speaker!! You can get 8 Palladiums and 20 Subs for that price. Klipsch represents the best Sound Value in the world, without a doubt (pun intended). A moving coil/magnet/cone driver will move back and forth the same way whether it's a US Made Eminence, or some hand made Euro-Whatever Unobtanium. So in terms of sound VALUE, this speaker is the worst, no matter how good it sounds. Those of us with Engineering backgrounds know better than rich folks who want to brag about the price they paid for the speakers. When it comes to QUALITY of sound per DOLLAR, there isn't a speaker in the world that can touch KLIPSCH anything in the modern or Heritage line. If we took this $18,000 and called the Klipsch PRO dealers, we would get an MCM 4-way system with brand new twin horn subs that would absolutely TROUNCE any of these 100's of overpriced Mickey Mouse distortion boxes that would fall apart the minute that any kind of sound emulating REAL LIVE MUSIC, like the DYNAMICS of a REAL DRUM SET. My own setup is as "miniature" of a setup than CAN reproduce the sound of live drums, which are THE most challenging crest factor/dynamics/transients, you name it. When his system made the cover of Audio Magazine as the "ultimate" with 46 db Watts of power on horns, I remember, the analog genius, Richard Burwen, saying that peak sound output from ACOUSTIC drums can reach 140 decibels. That is MY refererence and the Chesky Test Recording of Drums is my best Single Cut DEMO CD. Burwen designed an all-horn system to handle LIVE DRUMS, which he had setup/measured in the sound room for comparison, and everything else goes down from there. There were NO DIRECT RADIATOR speakers involved. Even the twin 30" subwoofer drivers were loaded by the giant conical horns. So if we take a system like this as the ultimate, all these little boxes that the magazine reviewers wax poetic about (like $10,000 2-way nearfield monitors) are all expensive crap in comparison. It's also the reason why they always put the drummer in the BACK of the band, sometimes behind plexiglas, in smaller venues. http://www.burwenaudio.com/Sound_System.html Edited March 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 BTW, what inspired Wilson, the man himself, to start building speakers is after he heard a pair of KLIPSCHORNS for the first time and was blown away by the sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) I have not heard the Jubilees yet but am hoping to someday. If they really are that much more than the Khorns, I'll likely be getting some. Don't know what you have but would not mind hearing that either. The sound I was getting, in that room, in that house, with that gear, was magical. If there is something even better, I can't imagine how that would be. PWK himself wanted to sell the Jubilee as a "new improved Klipschorn" but having already sold the company, the new owners felt that it was best to never touch the original legacy of the Khorn, which is the ONLY speaker in the world to REMAIN while all the other from every speaker company in the world have come and gone for over 60 years. It was a better plan for sales and marketing. Those who really wanted Jubilees simply had to order them from the Pro dealers, which can still be done anytime by anyone with the budget for NEW Heritage Klipschorns. I heard Jubilee bass side by side with Khorns, as well as, on another occasion, side by side with MWM woofers, with the same K-402 on top. Myself, and a few others there, preferred the more impact-full bass from the simpler MWM (fewer folds), which is also available from the Pro dealers. Since it is THX approved for theater installations, it is a "double 15" bin that weighs about 300 lbs and won't fit though the doorway of a house. So those of us who wanted this had to find used SINGLE bins (called MWM"s") or build out own. Having owned 4 single Klipsch MWM bins with various woofer/drivers, listening and measuring them, I have concluded that 4 horn loaded 15's is overkills sound and poor use of space in a home, so I whittled the stack down to just 2 singles, with NO audible difference in sound quality in the home. It also made the stack lower for the mid and tweeter horns and put them at seated ear level. Having compromised with a Belle-like short horn for too long, since I didn't have room for a MWMs, I had no choice but to design my own "Miniature MWMs" which I call the Quarter Pie Bass Horn because of it's shape and the fact that it fits neatly into a corner (see Avatar). My top end is, essentially, the top end of a 3-way Jubilee, with a different woofer section and a pair of Super Spud subwoofers. Both Khorns and Jubilees in corners are down several decibles at 40 Hz., so I think they all need a Sub below 60 Hz. Those who have heard my setup will never argue that point with me or anyone. I owned the exact same setup as Paul Klipsch himself for over 30 years (I went to his house and heard his setup and personal recordings 29 years ago). If he were alive, I'm sure that he would agree that what I have and the factory 2 or 3-way Jubilees are all superior to his creation from the 1940's, since he himself was the major creator of all the newer stuff of which we speak. Edited March 9, 2014 by ClaudeJ1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 k-horns sealed correctly in concrete backed drywalled basement 13x23 room. How high is your ceiling, if I might ask? Do you have the Khorns along the short wall or the long wall? Anything on the floor or ceiling? How about on top of the Khorns? Sometimes a picture is worth thousands of words. If you haven't seen this before, perhaps some of this might be of some use to you in your audio journeys: Corner Horn Imaging FAQ Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
001 Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 To put it another way, you wouldn't compare the performance of a car to that of a truck, because they are different types of vehicles, designed to do very different jobs. However, a speaker designed for listening to music in a home environment should be comparable with any other speaker built for the same purpose, if the prices are similar. As for cars, most Porsches cost much less than $250k, more typically $100k, and muscle cars cost much more than $20, more typically $40k plus. Also, Porsche does well in business because they have one of the largest profit margins per car. & that observation is just as flawed... saying you cant compare a car to a truck is because they are apples to oranges, however speakers for music in a home can be apples to oranges too in the sense that a 10" woofer bookshelf speaker is in no way "comparable" to a 15" folded horn speaker... regardless of price. they are totally different animals. which again, is all i was pointing out. & the analogy to the high $$ porsche to a muscle car was along the same lines, they are both cars, sold to give people driving enjoyment, however one has a completely different purpose than the other. & yes many porshces or other exotic makes of car is or can be 250k, i didnt mean a 70-100k run of the mill porsche, i meant a high$$ 911 turbo or carrera etc. & the "muscle cars" i was comparing it to are most commonly in the 20k range. im talking about 60's & 70's true muscle cars that people build for 1/4 mile track use. they usually run in the low 11 second to high 10 sec et range, all faster than most exotic foreign cars (your choice of make & model) that are not as fast on a drag strip but are "better" in all other scenarios like top speed, handling, braking, styling etc etc. hence, apples to oranges. so to end any disagreements some seem to have with my comments, i like my k-horns very much as well as all the other klipsch i have owned, not sure where the "maybe full horns arent for you" came from, just reiterating the numerous comments i have read on here & elsewhere about the areas that are lacking in the k-horn & la scallas. some love their k-horns in stock form, some spend lots of money to upgrade things that, well, need to be upgraded. & to point out that everyone hears different & likes different things when i stressed that myself is kind of redundant. to each their own will always apply to any subject of comparison there is. there are other attributes to the high $$ speakers out there & reasons why they cost so much more is all i was saying. didnt mean to offend or hijack the thread... back to topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 no offense intended to the OP or klipsch in general, as i am a long time klipsch owner & fan & personally prefer most of their speakers. BUT my first observation to the comparison of what the OP heard & his la scalas is: of course the bass wasnt as good as la scallas, its a 10" woofer in a sealed or bass reflex cabinet vs a 15" woofer in a folded horn. that should be obvious. myself & other klipsch owners, just like any owner of another brand speaker or make of car etc, are somewhat biased, you are used to the sound you hear from the horns & are comparing your used prices with new "high end" stuff. so yes, dollar for dollar you like your speakers better. however, i bet the high $$ speakers you heard had much more accurate mid bass & the highs were very smooth etc etc. they dont require hundreds or thousands of dollars of upgrades & mods like so many klipsch speakers can & do. plus the cabinets were probably real solid wood, not mdf with a micro thin veneer. the crossovers are most likely made with the high dollar components, not the cheapest available & needing upgrades to better quality. all things to consider that make the higher $$ speakers cost more & arguably sound better/different. agian, i am a very happy owner of numerous klipsch speakers, however i can & do appreciate the other brands that are out there. i understand why some things cost more than others. main example, i just bought some k-horns, thought for sure they would be the holy grail of speakers & i would be 100% pleased with them... welll sorry to say, i am not. they no doubt have their strong points but can have a very harsh midrange & tweeter. its no secret, in fact many people/companies make a living selling things to fix or address this very common issue. how are $9,000 speaker so inadequite in these areas? i've heard the adages that they are so revealing that unless your recording is perfect they sound like crap or the room or the gear etc etc... well, why is it that other brands can sound so good with less than perfect recordings & rooms etc? seems to me that should be an attribute of speakers if they can still sound excellent on poor recordings or less than perfect gear. if i pay thousands of dollars for a "flagship" speaker but need to spend thousands more in mods & upgrades or buy ridiculous priced tube amps, then how good are they really? i know some will take that the wrong way, just pointing out how i see it & that you need to compare apples to apples when you try to discount other makes of things. of course a $250,000 porsche can be smoked in the quarter mile by a 20,000 muscle car, but dont forget about the handling, braking, styleing & technology that goes into that porsche, not to mention the lifestyle it represents for the limited few that can afford it. its all relative. Thanks, you saved a bunch of typing. Seems there are a few posts like this today, another calling all other non-horns mickey mouse distortion boxes (joking of course). If you have skills, you can build a hot rod, in any hobby. Factor in your time and the new speakers will not seem so expensive. On the same note, I have had speakers that equal K Horns for about a fraction of the the price of a pair of K Horns. You know what they were? Used K Horns. How can you compare used performance to new. Someone has to buy these things new. Finally, what if you have to design a speaker that can fit into a typical living room, meaning it cannot be as big as a fridge, but you want it to be as accurate as possible? A full horn system isn't going to do it. Anyway, I have Klipsch speakers a love them. But this bench racing reminds me of 30 years ago reading Car Craft and bench racing. Cary on gents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) This is very true for certain types of drums. I've never ran the LS II's without dual subs, so I'm not the best "two channel" guy to comment. Accuracy? The OP mentions drums sounded less accurate to him. MDF is dimensionally more stable than solid wood. Built like is way less important than sound like. The La Scala lacks about one octave of audible bass. As a percussionist yourself, what do drums sound like when you remove the lowest audible octave? Does it sound like the original live performance? I find that this octave is critical for percussion and string bass reproduction. Chris Edited March 9, 2014 by etc6849 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 (edited) I really want to hear the Jubilee's myself. I don't think there's any near me? I have to move in a few years or less for work, so I'm going to try to find a house with a big enough room either for three more LS II's (7.2) or Jubscala's. I'd also like to get room for two horn loaded subs, but we'll see. Jmon, if you ever get a bug in your ear to listen, there is at least one pair of Jubilee's in Littleton (?) Regardless of that accuracy, they are in the greater Denver area. There is another pair in Silverton during the tourist months. The pair in Silverton reside at what I hear is a nice restaurant and they play to the outdoor patio. Couple of nice guys too! Edited March 9, 2014 by etc6849 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etc6849 Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Thanks for the story. I don't feel so crazy now. The salesman asked what I thought after a while and I told him. He really did look at me like I was crazy, but even my wife agreed with me (for once). One thing I liked about the Wilson Audio set up was the imaging. My RF-83's could never image like that, but my LS II's really can. I think it's largely due to their big mid-range horn. I’ve relayed this story in the past but I’ll do it again here since we are talking about Wilson Audio. Several years ago, I had an extra pair of Klipschorns for sale. A gentleman stopped by to audition them. He told me that he had never heard Klipschorns before and was interesting in seeing what they were all about. He also told me that he worked in Real Estate and living/working in Orange County, he made a lot of money. He had only one hobby and it was audio, so he could basically buy just about anything he wanted, but as he was going to be potentially buying something from me he also made it clear he makes sure he gets value when he does make a purchase. He chose to buy used so that he could experiment to find what worked best and sell those items that he didn’t want without losing much if any money. I do not remember all of the gear he had at the time, but the speakers that would be getting replaced were Avantgarde Solos. I also remember he owned the Audio Research Reference preamplifier (a roughly $10k component at that time). He said he also had a lot of audiophile friends with expensive gear. I demoed the speakers to him using a wide variety of music. To say he was impressed would be an understatement. He wanted to know all of the components I had, down to the speaker wire I was using (basic wire from Parts Express). Not only did he decide to buy the Klipschorns, he offered to buy my entire setup, from source to speakers. He told me one of his friends owned a $100,000 system that consisted of Wilson Audio speakers. He flat out said my system sounded better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 I really want to hear the Jubilee's myself. I don't think there's any near me? I have to move in a few years or less for work, so I'm going to try to find a house with a big enough room either for three more LS II's (7.2) or Jubscala's. I'd also like to get room for two horn loaded subs, but we'll see. Jmon, if you ever get a bug in your ear to listen, there is at least one pair of Jubilee's in Littleton (?) Regardless of that accuracy, they are in the greater Denver area. There is another pair in Silverton during the tourist months. The pair in Silverton reside at what I hear is a nice restaurant and they play to the outdoor patio. Couple of nice guys too! I don't recall where Irmo is but I'd speculate I might be the nearest pair to you (Knoxville, TN) Here's a thread with many locations https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/123912-jubilee-locations-for-possible-auditions/?hl= jubilee audition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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