Zen Traveler Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thank you for your explanation but still think the reason to purchase more power is if you are experiencing distortion at the volume you listen or if you want to play it louder...I haven't gone to AVS this morning (saw there was new posts though) the consensus there is adding an external amp would gain me nothing that I am not getting out of the AVR-4311ci. That said and as others have mentioned, this is a hobby where we find our own path, but I like to look at the science of it when making my financial decisions. I have the same/similar specification (140w channel) avr... a very clean ICE based SC-35. when I changed to externals, the sound quality improved SIGNIFICANTLY. moving to separates was one of the biggest sound quality improvements I've made save for going with highly upgraded XO's. Sound quality improvement was a significant decrease in graininess and improved separation which means more dimension instead if a flat wall of sound. At the time I was only driving two speakers for 2 channel... I can only imagine that driving 9 speakers would benefit similarly or at the very least driving the front three with externals and leaving the sides and rears driven with the denon would can only benefit sound, specially if driven at significant db's. as other have said though... as long as you are happy. Zen has been arguing this topic since 2006 and still has never owned an amp to compare. Yet he will argue the difference to death Reference Head--You keep making it personal and I wish you would discuss the topics at hand...I am glad you like your Home Theater but will let others judge our interaction and come up with their own opinions...That said, if you want to debate the issue please do so in the linked thread at AVS because I have no desire to debate your subjective opinion on this thread or the Klipsch Owners Thread because that always seems to end the same way. This is also in the 2 channel section and I don't have anything to add to this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 If someone is going to give a review on a movie. I would like that person to have at least seen the movie. Or hes just wasting my time 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 If someone is going to give a review on a movie. I would like that person to have at least seen the movie. Or hes just wasting my time And I contend you don't even know how loud you listen to the material or components that you are auditioning so your basis is on subjective reasoning with no baseline to compare...Seriously, if you don't know the SPL you are comparing these things it won't be a fair test. Again--You are making it personal and I have no desire to "waste anymore of your time" so this will be my last comment to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 there is really not much to argue about, it's personal preference... that's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 there is really not much to argue about, it's personal preference... that's about it. I agree and it's also about how you go about your purchasing decisions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 (edited) What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... if designed properly the more maximum power you have the larger that sweet spot is! I designed my amplifiers with 60 watts per channel so that sweet spot is large enough so all but the metal head hard of hearing fruit cakes will never get out of that sweet spot. When you start approaching even 50% of the maximum power of a tube amp the distortion rises by a huge margin! Most end up at 1% or higher at full power. SET amplifier are often in the 5% range at full power...........mush mush. That is why I really get a kick out of someone that has a SET amp and stated it can run them out of the room and shake the walls... That isn't power folks that is extreme distortion. Even/Odd order doesn't matter at the levels were talking about. Edited June 9, 2014 by NOSValves 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... isn't that pretty much true on any amplifier regardless of class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Big amps equal big sound. Big amps add weight, power and depth. Put a 400wpc amp on any system and it will sound different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... isn't that pretty much true on any amplifier regardless of class? Pretty sure that is a yes. Big amps equal big sound. Big amps add weight, power and depth. Put a 400wpc amp on any system and it will sound different. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... isn't that pretty much true on any amplifier regardless of class? No not really many amplifier designs (mostly SS) have horrible performance down low... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... if designed properly the more maximum power you have the larger that sweet spot is! That is the best, most common sense explanation I've ever heard of that phenomenon! Thanks! No not really many amplifier designs (mostly SS) have horrible performance down low... If that is true, then where is the "sweet spot" for power in a SS amp? I know I tend to associate "clean" SS amp power with larger dedicated amps, but it may not be the "power" but better design which is leading to cleaner power, but that is just an assumption on my part. Edited June 9, 2014 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I think I said that same thing pages ago... I guess it still holds true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philly0116 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Big amps equal big sound. Big amps add weight, power and depth. Put a 400wpc amp on any system and it will sound different. I put a Carver M1.5t, which is 350wpc, on my RF-7's and it has changed my life and the sound of the speaker. Previously I had them on a B&K ST202 at 150wpc. The Carver has plenty of power and I will never exhaust the headroom. 350wpc seems like overkill on speakers that 102db efficiency but the extra power just makes them come alive. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) What most folks miss in the grand scheme of tube amplifiers is they make there best sound at the lower window of available maximum power... if designed properly the more maximum power you have the larger that sweet spot is! That is the best, most common sense explanation I've ever heard of that phenomenon! Thanks!No not really many amplifier designs (mostly SS) have horrible performance down low...If that is true, then where is the "sweet spot" for power in a SS amp?I know I tend to associate "clean" SS amp power with larger dedicated amps, but it may not be the "power" but better design which is leading to cleaner power, but that is just an assumption on my part. Well thanks I think this one should written into klipsch forum history as a major event! I never in a million years thought I'd get to the point where someone would applaud my writing skills As far as sweet spot on SS amps of course it varies from one design to the next. I'm hardly qualified to make any broad statement in this area. But I can say very few of them in my experiences work well at low levels....You have to lean on them. In most cases the distortion curve is the exact reverse of tubes...in general the clippng character and the form of distortion are polar opposites also... Edited June 10, 2014 by NOSValves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul79 Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Speakers play a big role in that sweet spot as well. Some like to be turned up to wake up so to speak. This is part of the system building process. Amps and speakers getting along is about the toughest part to nail down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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