Daan Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Years ago when I turned from normal speakers to La Scala's, people who owned them told me I'd be having enough power to drive them with "only a few watts" , and that's what I told other people as well.... but is that true? For years I used low-powered SET tube amps, but now that I'd gone "active" with a miniDSP on the University Classics and having tried different amps I have serious doubts about that statement. Considering over here we don't have a large livingroom and these big University's are positioned about 4 metres from the listening-area you would suspect even one watt would be enough to drive us out of our chair and play loud and clear. So this morning I did something crazy; I swapped the Denon 100W/ch poweramp which drives the woofers for one of my retired Bryston 4B poweramp with 2x 250W/ch. The difference [besides a bit hum] was immediately very clear; more speed and depth in the lows and my wife says the speakers "are livelier than ever " on demanding passages from large classic works. Now the woofers are crossed over at 1100Hz with 18Db/ so they have a big influence on the overall sound. When playing the Japanese drums from "Kodo" LOUD ,the difference is huge compared to the Denon [which is regarded a very good amp and should have no trouble driving the woofers whatsoever]. So I assume even when using a high sensivity speaker you still need enough grip to capture the real dynamics of demanding passages. Who also has experienced this... ever tried different [heavily overrated] amps on your horns? Nico 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) what is "enough grip to capture the real dynamics of demanding passages" mean? I use super clean fairly high output horse power for my Heritage speakers... no complaints here. Edited June 1, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Amp topology. Headroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Amp topology. Headroom. Exactly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Years ago when I turned from normal speakers to La Scala's, people who owned them told me I'd be having enough power to drive them with "only a few watts" , and that's what I told other people as well.... but is that true? For years I used low-powered SET tube amps, but now that I'd gone "active" with a miniDSP on the University Classics and having tried different amps I have serious doubts about that statement. Considering over here we don't have a large livingroom and these big University's are positioned about 4 metres from the listening-area you would suspect even one watt would be enough to drive us out of our chair and play loud and clear. So this morning I did something crazy; I swapped the Denon 100W/ch poweramp which drives the woofers for one of my retired Bryston 4B poweramp with 2x 250W/ch. ... So I assume even when using a high sensivity speaker you still need enough grip to capture the real dynamics of demanding passages ... Nico If the Denon and the Bryston are rated fairly, you would be getting a tad more than 3 dB more headroom with the Bryston. There may well be other factors unknown, and perhaps unnamed. After reading this stuff (as an only moderately technical amateur) for more than 40 years, I doubt if there is a very satisfying response to your concern. While 2 watts is sufficient to "drive" La Scalas to 100 dB in a 3,000 cu ft room (Keele, 1977; Dope from Hope 16/1), the problem comes in with the intensity and duration of peaks, IMO. When measuring full symphony orchestras with a peak reading meter (fast) you would get 115 dB peaks, for just an instant, according to Paul Klipsch. In the same 3,000 cu feet room mentioned above, that would require 63 watts, for just that instant. Still no problem for either of your amps. But, we haven't quantified an "instant." And, some modern meters can register 120 dB peaks from the conductor's position. That would take about 200 watts. What if the leading edge of a peak comes in at 123 dB for a millisecond or less? That would take about 400 watts for that moment. Someone once posted the peak levels for rim shots heard fairly close up. I can't recall the figure, but it was greater than any I have mentioned above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Is the Denon a receiver? Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 "grip" is amplifier topology? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 "grip" is amplifier topology? Is that what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) it is absolutely is what you said... lol that was my original question, I know what I meant when I asked it... WTF is grip? I understand what the idea was behind the OP's post, I merely have no idea what the heck a GRIP is. Edited June 2, 2014 by Schu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 it is absolutely is what you said... lol that was my original question, I know what I meant when I asked it... WTF is grip? I understand what the idea was behind the OP's post, I merely have no idea what the heck a GRIP is. As for grip, I might guess the OP perceived dynamics of an "otherwise" live performance. Think Memorex... lol. Mostly wanted to say that different amps do sound different, and that maybe "headroom" had something to offer demanding passages. Traction? Fidelity? WTFK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I see... my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I see... my bad. Not at all. I'm guessing, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 2, 2014 WTF is grip? I see... my bad. Not at all. I'm guessing, too. You two had me laughing, this is funny. I think I might not have enough grip myself with only 35 wpc, but I'm kind of scared to go with more grip. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 But, we haven't quantified an "instant." And, some modern meters can register 120 dB peaks from the conductor's position. That would take about 200 watts. My whole problem with this statement is that the audience doesn't sit/stand in the conductor's position. I'm usually 30 feet plus for the conductor's position. I guess I could calculate how loud that could be, but we need to be more realistic about where you are sitting according to the engineers and producers.Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 You two had me laughing, this is funny. I think I might not have enough grip myself with only 35 wpc, but I'm kind of scared to go with more grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Who also has experienced this... ever tried different [heavily overrated] amps on your horns? I wouldn't say I was over powering them, but hooked up the Marantz 2325 for 125w and turned it up. I was down stairs. One lady said she had never seen anyone listen to music like that. The newest cat I'm told was on her belly crawling from room to room trying to find a quite place I suppose. Twas fun, but not something I plan to do very often. Kinda showed what feeling the music was like. A friend suggested I use headphones next time. But as I told her, it just wouldn't be the same experience. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I would think a 105 dB/1 watt, fully loaded horn speaker rated at 8 Ohms wouldn't take much power to drive at 12 feet away...Seriously, I thought that was the beauty of having the Lascala and K-horn... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 it is absolutely is what you said... lol that was my original question, I know what I meant when I asked it... WTF is grip? I understand what the idea was behind the OP's post, I merely have no idea what the heck a GRIP is. As for grip, I might guess the OP perceived dynamics of an "otherwise" live performance. Think Memorex... lol. Mostly wanted to say that different amps do sound different, and that maybe "headroom" had something to offer demanding passages. Traction? Fidelity? WTFK. Headroom? Wouldn't the lascala have it to spare with any of the amps or AVRs being discussed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mungkiman Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I would think a 105 dB/1 watt, fully loaded horn speaker rated at 8 Ohms wouldn't take much power to drive at 12 feet away...Seriously, I thought that was the beauty of having the Lascala and K-horn... Nico seems to be speaking for University Classics, not La Scalas... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 But, we haven't quantified an "instant." And, some modern meters can register 120 dB peaks from the conductor's position. That would take about 200 watts.My whole problem with this statement is that the audience doesn't sit/stand in the conductor's position. I'm usually 30 feet plus for the conductor's position. I guess I could calculate how loud that could be, but we need to be more realistic about where you are sitting according to the engineers and producers.Bruce I guess I got used to high SPL when playing in orchestras in the past. Nowadays, I would sit within 10 feet of the conductor if I could afford it. Also, the THX/Audyssey/SMPTE specs call for 115 dBfs through the LFE channel. I know the OP's La Scalas wouldn't be called on to deliver that in the bass, but if he ends up using La Scalas for HT down the line by adding a center and a sub at least the sub amp needs to be capable of pushing the sub to that SPL at refference level. We use Klipschorns, a Belle center, and a sub with music some of the time, and with movies all of the time, and they are dynamic beyond belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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