My new DeanG networks…

[Deang]

I don't like active set ups because everyone is using them and they're killing my sales.

Well, maybe everyone isn't using them YET, but by golly they will be, and then I'm finished.

People, please, for the sake of my children - DON'T GO ACTIVE!

I am reasonable. Quit reading things into my posts that aren't there.

Btw, I'm pretty sure it's related to stray capacitance and eddy currents. I'm well medicated though.

[Deang]

"If someone doesn't have a good experience with an ALK crossover would it be OK to form a generalized opinion that includes Dean's designs?"

I only have one network that works like a Universal, all of my other designs used fixed attenuation.

You give a good example though, because the SuperX sounds surprisingly very little like the Universal, even though it's a diplexer and uses the swamping resistor to pull the impedance down - and then of course the parts.

[erik2A3]

This has been an interesting thread, though has required copious sifting of (often very unkind) chaff to get to the grain. Things are looking more like the forum I remember from a dozen years or so ago.....

On the subject of EQ: Was a working definition as it relates to this exchange ever established? If we are addressing it in terms of the passive or active boosting or reductions of a given band of frequencies, one of ther first ways I consciously employed was at the crossover level -- which was in 1990 when I began building my own speakers and crossovers. What I found at that time, in terms of high pass filter (did I say "filter") circuits, was that capacitors using different dielectric materials sometimes sounded different. I never really cared about 'brand names' of passive components, but chose what sounded right to me without respect to cost; and knowing what I did (and still know now) about the very low voltages imposed on crossover components compared to their counterparts in preamplifiers and amps (which I started to build a couple of years later), did not spend totally unnecessary costs for high voltage capacitors.

I even found that different wire and cable used could sound different -- which again seemed to be related more to insulation than actual conductor material, though I did find a pair of pure silver cables I made with Teflon tubing painfully bright. "Painfully bright" as in an overly pronounced or 'passively-boosted' HF/treble response. A very definite form of EQ, IMO.

When I was in the position of being able to spend more on components, I did experiment with many of the brands that are stamped with names that imply hi-fi audio applications. They certainly cost more, and often used more expensive dielectric plastics. There were times I liked what they did (IN A SPECIFIC) circuit, and at other time not -- and used what sounded right, providing it provided the specific capacitance needed (another frequency discriminating example) with an appropriate voltage tolerance. It also may have been a cheaper part, which in most cases did in fact use a less expensive dielectric and/or conductor material. Teflon, which is one of those more expensive materials, can in cases impart certain electrical characteristics, potentially lower ESR being one I have often seen is association, and that may be desireable in SOME cases.....and for those individuals who prefer the type of sound that might be related to lower ESR values. In audio circuits, including the crossovers in which I've used them, that often translated into potentially more pronounced treble response, which, if one happened to choose drivers with the same rated efficiency, might, as it did in my case, upset the balance between a tweeter and the rest of the system. In other words, resulting in undesirable treble emphasis -- which could be repaired, if one were so inclined, through the use of a variable or fixed L-pad, or autoformer/multi-tapped choke. Both of which will provide attenuation of a specific band of frequencies.

I also have a Lexicon processor that I bought years ago, mainly as a more sophisticated, and in indeed better-sounding way of incorporating a third center channel. That Lexicon, in terms of transparency, crossoever adjustability, means of attenuation and balancing with the two main L and R channels, was to me nothing short of a revalation. I still use it. Its design is quite different from what I had been doing passively for many years, but I certainly did not think it corrupted the sound of my music -- unless I adjusted its parameters in a way that brought about lousy-sounding reproduction (which I did inadvertently many times until I understood more about how it worked.

Mark: I have taught art history, both at the college and high school levels, for 25 years. I really enjoyed your comparisons of different movements to this subject!

[Mallette]

Personally, I HATE "Y" and cannot comprehend why anyone would listen to it...

Dave

[erik2A3]

Here's another very simple implementation of passive EQing I have used off and on over the years: just a little bit of background - most of what I studied as a means of teaching myself about audio frequency electronics was by way of pouring over the old Ham radio manuals and texts published decades ago. Included in all of the formulae, descriptions of circuit types -- cathode followers, grounded grid amplifiers, grid-bias, cathode bias, etc., etc. were passive circuits used to boost bass and treble frequencies, whereby the user in question might tailor the overall response in a manner that best suited his or her listening preferences. It might be important to note, by the way, that in most, if not all of those cases the associated controls were variable potentiometers. The term "variable" implies the importance of individualized adjustability, which further implies that the manner in which one person alters the response may not be to the liking of someone else.

On power amplifiers where I have placed a same-value potentiometer in place of the usual grid leak resistor, I often add a very small value capacitor in the range of 47-100 pfd or between the input of the control and the wiper. What this does is give a slight boost in high frequency response at lower volume rotation to off set some of the otherwise deleterious effects associated of this type of gain control,where at low volume music is sometimes robbed of its life and sparkle.

What kind of cap? Usually silver mica is preferred, and is certainly more expensive than a like value cheap ceramic capacitor. However, I've used both. What is better, I submit, depends very significantly on the context in which it is used.

[CECAA850]

Question 2. Anyone have a photo of these 55 pound passives that are being talked about?

I've seen the pics but am not quite sure where they are. They were absolutely enormous.

[CECAA850]

Maybe these?

[Fjd]

Maybe these?

I wonder if foil inductors would sound better?

[Marvel]

Here's one on the wall in his room... next to the Jub. Dean made some others for someone on here, too, but not as expensive as the ones Marion built. I think Marion uses some 300B amps through these sometimes.

Bruce

Edited August 6, 2014 by Marvel

[Deang]

That's one of Marion's passive networks for his Jubilees. The 55 pounder was in reference to a Danley loudspeaker.

The Mundorfs on that board are 800Vdc, so they take up a lot of room. Steel laminates could have been used in the low pass, which would have take up less room too. No matter, this was an all-out assault, and it's just respecting the craft. I think it's bad *** beautiful.

[CECAA850]

The 55 pounder was in reference to a Danley loudspeaker

This?

[CECAA850]

That's Danleys Synergy horn.

[CECAA850]

Well, it's an absolutely perfect and timely confirmation that we are discussing here is art movements. The art of the horn.

According to what I've read, the drivers are all time aligned and in perfect phase somehow and it sounds like a single driver horn.

[Mallette]

This?

The Flux Capacitor?

Dave

[Deang]

That looks more like: "Okay guys, we have this weird shaped board, and we have to get a network on it."

So why did they opt for a passive solution -- active would have been infinitely easier.

[CECAA850]

So why did they opt for a passive solution -- active would have been infinitely easier.

Passive aggressive Dean??? LOL

[erik2A3]

Mark: yes, that's my profession. Fascinating subject, to be sure!

You're right. I do use SET amps -- both triode and pentode. But I also use push-pull amps. I have three OTLs as well, in single-ended as well as push pull output stages.

One of my reasons for going the Lowther, full-range driver route is because they DON'T use crossovers, which I think color the sound far more than the Lexicon DSP. This is not to say that my system doesn't have coloration. As I said many times in the years gone by, we all choose our preferred colorations.

My favorite single-ended 2a3 amplifier was designed by someone who did not use a single capacitor of any type in the signal path. I don't use it with the Lexicon. Very clever and very transparent sounding design. It's the Moth Audio Si2a3 I purchased in the form of a chassis, schematic, and box of parts. Even the most expensive capacitor available would completely ruin it. Again, it's a matter of context, and my practiced opinion is that any passive part is subordinate to the circuit in which it's used.

[Don Richard]

So why did they opt for a passive solution -- active would have been infinitely easier

Probably because the way the drivers are arranged in that box they are less than 1/4 wavelength away from each other at the crossover frequency. The time alignment is fairly close to start with. Digital time correction is most often necessary when folded bass horns are used and a greater amount of correction is required.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Don Richard

[mark1101]

Maybe these?

I wonder if foil inductors would sound better?

Yes, a thing of beauty...........until Roy realized his EQ settings for the K-69 were wrong. This network then instantly became obsolete. Roy changed the EQ twice more after that............guess what? This is not the way to skin the cat. 8 years ago it was pretty cool though.

[Don Richard]

Ummmm here are more exaggerations..... where have I ever stated that my path is the only path?

Have you stated otherwise in this thread? Where?