Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) The Cinema F-20 came on line today, and did not, perhaps, piss off the neighbors as cause them to shelter in place. The missing octave was found on the Virgil Fox direct to disc recording classic from Crystal Clear. Having performed a smoke test with no signal, I let the Black cartridge down into the lead in groove and turned the volume to twelve o'clock. No real noticeable change on the initial 8 and 4 foot stops that open the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. However, at bar 9 the run up the minor scale starts on a low D well below the clef. My teeth chattered, the lights visibly vibrated, and I was sexually stimulated as my private parts were massaged at 16.5hz. My son entered the room and shouted that stuff was moving around on his desk. I told him to call a priest. While my fight or flight instinct said "Run like hell..." I stuck it out and sunk into the music with eyes closed and could feel what one really feels in a great space. Powerful, yes. Loud, yes. But not really threatening at all once you convince your mind that earthquakes really don't happen in Houston and that the full range sound of a great hall is really possible even in a 12X15 space. Some tuning to do. Crossover isn't as transparent as I will make it. But, I just guessed at the settings. Huge thanks to Carl, Lonelobo, and, of course, the PAW. Pictures will be posted once I get the room straightened out. Dave Edited August 3, 2014 by Mallette 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Very nice, Dave! I can only imagine what you are experiencing. I look forward to seeing some pics of the room. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Full Range Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) The Cinema F-20 came on line today, and did not, perhaps, piss off the neighbors as cause them to shelter in place. The missing octave was found on the Virgil Fox direct to disc recording classic from Crystal Clear. Having performed a smoke test with no signal, I let the Black cartridge down into the lead in groove and turned the volume to twelve o'clock. No real noticeable change on the initial 8 and 4 foot stops that open the Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. However, at bar 9 the run up the minor scale starts on a low D well below the clef. My teeth chattered, the lights visibly vibrated, and I was sexually stimulated as my private parts were massaged at 16.5hz. My son entered the room and shouted that stuff was moving around on his desk. I told him to call a priest. While my fight or flight instinct said "Run like hell..." I stuck it out and sunk into the music with eyes closed and could feel what one really feels in a great space. Powerful, yes. Loud, yes. But not really threatening at all once you convince your mind that earthquakes really don't happen in Houston and that the full range sound of a great hall is really possible even in a 12X15 space. Some tuning to do. Crossover isn't as transparent as I will make it. But, I just guessed at the settings. Huge thanks to Carl, Lonelobo, and, of course, the PAW. Pictures will be posted once I get the room straightened out. Dave I pissed myself laughing at the - Call A Priest - line for a good 15 minutes That's classic and congrats at getting closer to Nirvana Edited August 3, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeker Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 i really just have to say congratulations Dave. Seriously. That has to be as fun as buying a new book or something at least! cheers!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heritage_Head Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Congrats! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Once you get the sub and Khorns dialed in and EQed flat, the results are pretty spectacular. The only issue left is waiting until everyone is out of the house in order to play Bach at slightly greater than front-row seat volume (as if you were standing with the bourdons). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 This afternoon will be spent in beginning the balancing and finding the lost octave in other recordings. Looking forward to it! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) http://smile.amazon.com/Uncommon-Bach-Organ-Works-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B00004WHAK http://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Gamut-Fox/dp/B000FWHVPU/ http://smile.amazon.com/Virgil-Organ-Plays-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B005KUKYB0/ http://smile.amazon.com/Encores-Virgil-Fox/dp/B000E1NWI2/ http://smile.amazon.com/Crown-Imperial-Dallas-Wind-Symphony/dp/B000X8NHHM/ http://smile.amazon.com/Pomp-Pipes-Dallas-Wind-Symphony/dp/B00000159M/ http://smile.amazon.com/Saint-Saens-Symphony-No-Organ-Franck/dp/B0001LYGIK/ http://smile.amazon.com/Bach-Four-Great-Toccatas-Fugues/dp/B00008PX99/ I've found that having DVD-As, SACDs, and high quality CDs with full low frequency fidelity down to the 16' 32' fundamental (17.6 Hz) favors digital recordings that are immune from feedback resonances and infrasonic filters often used on vinyl. Reel-to-reel recordings are good, too, but seemingly have a lot of hiss. Edited August 3, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 The 16' fundamental is "only" 32 Hz. Partially why PWK choose it as the K'horn bottom. Hence the title of this thread. As to the 16 Hz of a 32', you'll find it cleanly abundant on the Crystal Clear LP I played first yesterday. Even though the walls were shaking I really didn't detect any issues at all with my VPI turntable picking it up. This is, of course, one of the legendary LPs and only a few are this good. In general, I would agree that digital is best (though simply equal to reel to reel) for the lowest pipe organ registers or anything that extends to the "missing octave." Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 None of my LPs can compare to the above discs for this bottom octave. I've found that the best fidelity discs were recorded 24/96 (not RTR) and the best virtuoso performances are typically RTR due to the time at which they were recorded. I guess that my organ experience doesn't count. http://books.google.com/books?id=qgsst2OQYJEC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=%22stopped+organ+pipe%22&source=bl&ots=QSm8ylN3oA&sig=TVe9NJzYfr5ZmhEqZRZW7FgNx5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=31veU5LjAcmGyASY3YHwDw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22stopped%20organ%20pipe%22&f=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Very nice Dave! A large Hall expercience is very difficult and glad you found it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Chris, no questioning of your personal experience or qualifications whatsoever. I just assumed a slip of the pen. I am on my third organ transplant as we speak. There are several LPs that have clean 32 Hz grooves. The Virgil Fox "Fox Touch" are the best in my experience. As these were recorded digitally and analog direct to disc simultaneously and I have both versions, it's a great apples to apples comparison. The digital is, of course, pretty early. However, it was a 250k Soundstream so still very good. Back to back, though, the LP has that open airiness that is absent from all but the highest sample rates of digital down without transcoding and with a minimum of signal path. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Chris, no questioning of your personal experience or qualifications whatsoever. I just assumed a slip of the pen. No, but I'll not debit you either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) OK, the missing octave is C0 (16.5 Hz) to B0 (31 Hz). The K'horn was designed to handle C1 (32 Hz). Technically, the lowest note on the organ is 4 Hz (seriously), which is the resultant of a true 64' pipe and a 32' pipe stopped at a 5th (a quint). I think there are a couple of instruments that exist with this but I shall be satisfied with the 32' octave, methinks, both for the safety of my home as well as the neighbors. Just got the whole thing to, I think, about 90% using the wonderful early CD of Michael Murry at St. John the Devine. His Franck Chorale in B Minor is both wonderfully played and the St. John organ has a marvelous 32' section with the "quiet bass" needed for balancing a system. Right now, I am crossing over at 40 Hz and just to the right of 12 O'clock on gain. Phase is 0 as the sub is in line with the K'horns. On the final note I heard a little fluttering I need to investigate, but though I didn't pinpoint it I am pretty sure it was a sympathetic from somewhere, though it MAY have been a beat with the K'horn woofers. If so, I suspect I may need to re-visit phase a bit. However, it's wonderful and as transparent as horns always are. Here's the first picture of the completed room. Still have cable management and such, and my only serious error appears to have been not accounting for the horn opening. I was so fixated on the spacing between the horns, the turntable shelf, and the Cinema I just used a box of the right size in Sketchup and totally forgot about the opening. Therefore, the R2R is crowding the screen a bit. Oh, well. Could have been worse. If it hadn't fit (there's about a half inch clearance) I'd have been in deep doodoo. Edited August 3, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) Have you had any changes to your midrange imaging or midrange tonal balance since installing the subs? Edited August 3, 2014 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 No sir. AAMOF, I was just noticing that the mids and overall sounds somewhat better for whatever reason. Doing a bit of rock n roll now. Midnight Oil's "Diesel and Dust" is, IMHO, one of the better technical achievements in CD popular. For years I used to pin "newbies" to the wall for a minute or two with "Beds are Burning" to demo K'horns. Wonderful, and I found the tweaking from the Murry organ needed no change for it...a good thing! Then, of course, DSOTM. What next? So much music, so little time! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 This thread makes me happy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 (edited) ME TOO! Just listened to Brian Carpenter's Ghost Train Orchestra. Reviewed it here a couple of years back. VERY clean recording of classic 20s brass jazz band. What I noticed was that the bass drum, always solid and clean, now had a sense of "no bottom in sight" reality as though the drum were right in the room. NICE! Dave Edited August 3, 2014 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted August 3, 2014 Author Share Posted August 3, 2014 Any changes in your upper ranges, Michael? Or am I just imagining it because the low end is now so bottomless. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted August 3, 2014 Share Posted August 3, 2014 Or am I just imagining it because the low end is now so bottomless. Dave I think that's it more than anything. The low end is no longer siphoning critical power from your MF/HF drivers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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