Newbie looking to upgrade crossovers on my Reference RF-3 ii

[ninjai18]

I've got a 7 month old and 3 year old. I'm right there with you. I spent about a year buying $8-20 class D amps, swapping out cheap parts for expensive ones, ruining boards, and getting some decent performance. But I had to do a lot of reading and a lot of trial and error. People helped me, but I also took the initiative to answer some of my own questions.

I just need a list of reasonably priced parts and a little guidance to get a less shrill sound with a smoother tweeter/woofer transition.

aha! that will greatly impact the guidance people give you. you many not need to replace every component to achieve your stated goal. or there may not be much that can even be done with that speaker platform to attain the results you want. but at least we know what your goal is..

I have read that many people upgraded their RF-7's to sound smoother and more natural by just switching out a few cheap parts in their crossover network, I can't imagine the RF-3 would be all that different. I can't find the thread, but I read a few years ago a guy did just what I want to do with his RF-3's and noticed a huge difference and spent very little money on the upgrades.

[Marvel]

Which type of capacitors should I get? There are several different kinds. Which Mills resistor on this page should I choose? http://www.parts-exp...e-resistors/301 - What are the wattage and ohms ratings for the Mills resistors you are suggesting? Am I replacing the current resistors, or adding the Mills resistor in addition to the one that's already there to attenuate the high end? Any chance on a direct link to the caps and resistors?

 

If you think the schematic is correct, REPLACE with the same value as what is already there, i.e., if there is a 10 watt, 2 ohm, 5%, replace with the same.

 

The caps should be non polarized and follow the same thing. A 12 microfarad, 100v rating.

 

If you change the capacitance value of the caps, you will change the crossover point. The voltage rating can be higher, but the part will be physically larger, same with the resistor. This will make it harder to place on the printed circuit board.

 

As Dean said, the Dayton caps and Mills, non inductive resistors will be better than what is there now.

 

Bruce

[Thaddeus Smith]

 

I've got a 7 month old and 3 year old. I'm right there with you. I spent about a year buying $8-20 class D amps, swapping out cheap parts for expensive ones, ruining boards, and getting some decent performance. But I had to do a lot of reading and a lot of trial and error. People helped me, but I also took the initiative to answer some of my own questions.

 

I just need a list of reasonably priced parts and a little guidance to get a less shrill sound with a smoother tweeter/woofer transition.

aha! that will greatly impact the guidance people give you. you many not need to replace every component to achieve your stated goal. or there may not be much that can even be done with that speaker platform to attain the results you want. but at least we know what your goal is..

I have read that many people upgraded their RF-7's to sound smoother and more natural by just switching out a few cheap parts in their crossover network, I can't imagine the RF-3 would be all that different. I can't find the thread, but I read a few years ago a guy did just what I want to do with his RF-3's and noticed a huge difference and spent very little money on the upgrades.

 

 

yes, that is correct. i haven't read about rf-3's exhibiting the same "problem" that the rf-7's do. i have spent a fair amount of time listening to a friend's rf-3's and owned rf-5's for several years and never had an issue with their sound. just goes to show that different people hear different things. i've listened to rf-7's a couple of times and they sounded great, but they contained Dean's early "rf-7" mod.

[ninjai18]

Which type of capacitors should I get? There are several different kinds. Which Mills resistor on this page should I choose? http://www.parts-exp...e-resistors/301 - What are the wattage and ohms ratings for the Mills resistors you are suggesting? Am I replacing the current resistors, or adding the Mills resistor in addition to the one that's already there to attenuate the high end? Any chance on a direct link to the caps and resistors?

If you think the schematic is correct, REPLACE with the same value as what is already there, i.e., if there is a 10 watt, 2 ohm, 5%, replace with the same.

The caps should be non polarized and follow the same thing. A 12 microfarad, 100v rating.

If you change the capacitance value of the caps, you will change the crossover point. The voltage rating can be higher, but the part will be physically larger, same with the resistor. This will make it harder to place on the printed circuit board.

As Dean said, the Dayton caps and Mills, non inductive resistors will be better than what is there now.

Bruce

Awesome, this is super helpful! It's starting to click. I noticed many capacitors on parts express do not say if they are polarized or not... I noticed Dean also recommends using Audyn caps, which do you think would be better, Audyn or Dayton? I have also seen Bennic suggested. He said to replace the Orange-ish oval shaped caps, are the two orange caps the same? I don't notice any markings on them that differentiate them.. Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[ninjai18]

So I noticed there are no Mills resistors that are 2 ohm 10 watts, but there is one that is 2 omh 12 watts, would this still work?

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Marvel]

So I noticed there are no Mills resistors that are 2 ohm 10 watts, but there is one that is 2 omh 12 watts, would this still work?

 

You are catching on

 

Yes, that would work.

[ninjai18]

So I noticed there are no Mills resistors that are 2 ohm 10 watts, but there is one that is 2 omh 12 watts, would this still work?

You are catching on

Yes, that would work.

I knew it was a matter of time before I did.

How many caps per speaker do you recon I'll need? Will each speaker need two different caps or just two of the same? (Plus the resistor) Am I correct in my understanding that I don't need to replace the large black capacitor, but the one underneath it and the one in front of it?

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Marvel]

How many caps per speaker do you recon I'll need? Will each speaker need two different caps or just two of the same? (Plus the resistor)

Replace part for part value...

 

The RF-3 schematic shows a 12 and 4.5 mFD on each crossover (plus the larger 18, which is across the woofers). This would mean you would need:

 

2 x 12mFD

2 x 4.5mFD

2 x 2 ohm Mills non inductive resistor.

 

Look at the value written on yours to see if the smaller ones are 4.5 or 5.

[ninjai18]

How many caps per speaker do you recon I'll need? Will each speaker need two different caps or just two of the same? (Plus the resistor)

Replace part for part value...

The RF-3 schematic shows a 12 and 4.5 mFD on each crossover (plus the larger 18, which is across the woofers). This would mean you would need:

2 x 12mFD

2 x 4.5mFD

2 x 2 ohm Mills non inductive resistor.

Look at the value written on yours to see if the smaller ones are 4.5 or 5.

Gotcha! That makes perfect sense. So you do recommend replacing the large black one?

[mike stehr]

The black one should be the 12uF.

 

The 1% tolerance Dayton caps are good value for the money.

Edited March 7, 2015 by mike stehr

[ninjai18]

It actually says 18.0J 100V on the big black one.. Do I need to replace 3 caps per speaker? There are two orange caps and one large black one.

The Bennic caps are more in my price range. Would those still work and sound good?

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Marvel]

Just replace the orange ones. I can't comment on the Bennic vs Dayton caps.

[ninjai18]

Just replace the orange ones. I can't comment on the Bennic vs Dayton caps.

Will do. The Bennic have a 10% tolerance, isn't that too high? Dean did recommend the Bennic caps earlier in the thread though, so this confuses me...

EDIT: I think I was looking at the lower quality Bennics, I found the 12uF 5% purity ones. Much more expensive. Okay I found the 1% tolerance caps. I am wondering, would there be a noticeable difference between the more expensive 1% purity caps and the 5% purity caps?

Edited March 7, 2015 by ninjai18

[Deang]

Which Bennics? Do not buy the polyesters or the electrolytics. Stay with the Dayton Audio brand, the sound is better.

The stock 18uF is in the low pass section. Leave it alone.

The RF-7 and RC-7 have an LCR circuit. Modifying the circuit reduces some ringing exhibited by the cones. The RF3/RF-3II don't have this circuit. Even without the circuit modification, you'll easily hear improvements in cleanliness and openness. The Mills resistors are an absolute must if one of your goals is to take some of that edge off of the top. There are some that don't notice it, mostly the casual listeners who aren't really paying attention to anything except the music (the blessed ones). However, reduce or remove the ringing, or any other distortion artifact, and well, it's fun to watch the light flick on. One of the more fun demonstrations I've done in the past is to re-install the stock networks after having installed the modified versions. I once had a local customer who was so paranoid about whether he would like the difference or not, that he bought a second pair of networks from Klipsch. He asked me if I would do the install for him, and even though I wasn't real thrilled about the idea, he was so nice to me that I went over and did it for him. He was blown away by the improvement, and I ended up spending the afternoon with him. After a couple of hours he commented that he couldn't even remember how they used to sound. Thirty minutes later we were back to stock. A minute or into a Clapton CD, he said, "I'm so happy you came over today."

You don't have to worry about not hearing an improvement, you will.

@Michael; I was disappointed that the battery biased/charge coupled networks didn't catch on -- such a smart, cost effective solution. After I dealt with the objections in the Roadshow Thread (with the help of Mark Deenen and a couple of others). I really thought it would fly. I built my own charge coupled Type AAs and compared them to my Jupiter build. I was a little depressed after a few days of listening because I realized I didn't have a clear preference. The Jupiter AAs just sounded so balanced and precise - pinpoint imaging at the chair - and so clean. The Charge Coupled build surprised me with the spaciousness of the presentation. I was happy to notice the obvious increase in cleanliness, which was the main thing I was after, but the spacious quality was pretty cool, and I wasn't getting it to the same extent with the Jupiter build. However, I always end up falling on the side of accuracy, and a thing I call "rightness". I know it sounds ridiculous, but some things just sound "right" and some things don't. The Jupiters and Jensens also sound "fat". This is difficult to explain - it's like the sound has more substance or weight. So, I would imagine you'll notice these things too, and it'll be fun hearing what you have to say.

You mentioned something about getting the impression that this is pretty easy and should only involve a few parts. Okay, I'm confused, because this is exactly what I did. Two capacitors and two resistors IS easy. I told you what brands to use, and where to find them, right? I also told how to figure out what values you needed without needing a schematic. At this point, all this required was a bit of web searching and some initiative. I resent the implication that you didn't get the help you asked for.

This is one of the reasons Al and myself decided to stop supporting DIY efforts. I once said to Al, "If someone doesn't know how to read parts values, doesn't know what they need or where to find it - they have no business doing this work, and I'm not about to let myself get sucked into their black hole project." What kills me is that all of this information is available just by doing searches with Google. If you can't do the simple stuff, what happens when things go sideways on you?

I've received plenty of help over the years by several, but I've also spent a lot of time educating myself. No one wants to help someone who doesn't put forth any effort.

Then there is the issue of quality of work. I personally don't think you should be learning on a production set of boards - you could easily find yourself having to order a new set of crossovers from Klipsch (if they even have any). Removing the old parts is actually more time intensive than putting the new ones in. The glue is a pain, and the logical approach, or it would seem - would be to use a screwdriver and just pop the parts off. But before that, you need to remove the old solder to release the leads from the board. Do you know how to use desoldering braid? I'll assume "yes" so we can move forward, but I suspect "no". So, you flip the board and get the screwdriver under the cap so you can lift it up and remove it from the board - but what happens instead is that screwdriver immediately slides under the cap and hits the coil behind it, ruining it. Yes, yes, I know this because I've done it! Then there are the standoffs that the screws feed through. Those crack or split pretty easy just by turning the screw to loosen it. The metal of the screw adheres to the hard plastic, and when you go to turn the screw, it's like the screw and the standoff are one part, and as the screw turns, it takes the standoff with it. This happened to me three or four times early on, and I had to use the serial numbers from my own RF-7s almost a half dozen times to order replacement crossovers due to my stupidity.

With PCB work, aesthetics isn't always an indicator of the quality of the work. The Chorus is a good example. Klipsch used an electrolytic for the midrange. To get a film type in that spot takes an unusual approach. Because the new parts are larger, I can't mount any of them in the conventional way. Because of this. I have to practically pot the network to protect the capacitors from mechanical vibration. It doesn't nice, but it's light years ahead in performance to the stock layout, where the junk parts are for the most part supported just by their leads. The last pair I did apparently left the customer less than pleased, because he sent me an email asking what kind of glue I used - because he couldn't get it off. When I asked him what he was doing, he didn't respond. I felt bad, but there was nothing wrong with the work. The point here is that you sometimes have to do things that look less than wonderful, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. If you meet the two requirements of providing good solder connections and adequate protection for your parts, you're good to go.

It's the little things that bite you, and when it comes to vendors, you're not just paying us for what we do, but for what we know.

A lot of information in this thread. If this can't kickstart you, I don't know what will. It's all good - go for it. If things go sideways I'll chime. I may say I told you so, but I won't be able to resist helping you along - but hey - you have to do a little to help yourself too, right?

Edited March 8, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister

[Marvel]

Very well worded, Dean. 

 

Thanks for the input. 

 

Bruce

[ninjai18]

Dean, I wasn't implying you weren't being helpful, I didn't intend to come across that way and I apologize if I did. :/

You really have been incredibly helpful.

You said no electrolytics or polyesters, so the metalized polypropylene..?

Edited March 8, 2015 by ninjai18

[ninjai18]

Ordered parts, can't effin wait!!

[CECAA850]

I was disappointed that the battery biased/charge coupled networks didn't catch on

 

Sorry to the OP for the off topic post.

 

Dean, my crossovers have been in a year this month.  When do you recommend changing the batteries?

[Deang]

First, don't use alkalines, they are prone to leaking (thanks to Bob for that bit of helpful advice).

Dennis says they should last five years, but if you're paranoid, you can do it once a year.

[Thaddeus Smith]

Get the energizer lithium super battery. Lasts 10 years and hot rod your sound.