jimjimbo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Need some help and advice from you fine turntable and vinyl guys....First of all let me say that I did not purchase a wickedly expensive turntable for my new foray into vinyl, but purchased a pretty decent unit to get me started, which has been very well reviewed and received. It is an Audio-Technica LP120 with an AT95E cartridge. It is well isolated, has a great cork mat, and a disk weight on the spindle. Also, have tried several albums, both live and studio, and admittedly recorded in the mid to late 70's...I have cleaned them and they are in nice shape. .I am using an Emotiva USP-1 pre-amp, and have played through a good portion of the entire collection of speakers...Cornwall I's, Belle's, La Scala's, and Heresy's. I have also switched amps, and have used my ampsandsound Stereo 15, two other monoblock tube amps, and a Pioneer SX-1250 receiver (without tone controls). In pretty much all configurations, I am experiencing a lack of low end. The mids and high frequencies are very clear, but without the bass to balance, are quite tiring and irritating. I honestly didn't know what to expect, but is this typical of, a modest cartridge, recordings of the era, or a modern SS preamp feeding tube amps/vintage receiver? Would there be a benefit to incorporating a tube pre-amp? Certainly not expecting a magic moment here or a complete resolution, but wondering how to view this and proceed...thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Jim check you arm and cartridge setup, also there is a site that will match your cartridge and arm and tell you if they are a good match check out vinyl engine your results are not typical something sounds amiss, very hard to diagnose via internet, My advice check out vinyl engine and make sure your arm and cart are compatible, next check arm alignment, then cart alignment, tracking force, etc... Vinyl will sound superb after set up properly if your table came with the arm and cart already installed odds are they are a good match but alignment could easily be off as well as track weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 do you have the emotiva preamp set to moving magnet or moving coil? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Are you using the internal high-pass crossover? Read the manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Check pinouts in your cartridge to head shell connections - they may not be in the correct order. The moving coil setting in your preamp produces too high gain. Using a non-phono input in your preamp will produce the results as you describe, per Mark's comment above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 To answer as many as i can in this post....the cartridge and tonearm were included with the TT, and from everything I read previously, were a relative nice setup.... I went through the user guide and set the tracking force, anti skate, etc, etc, exactly as recommended, although I did set the tracking force at the low end to 1.5 grams. (Possibly too light?) The Emo is set to MM, as the cartridge is as termed by Audio Technica, a "dual magnet"....I also disabled the internal preamp on the TT to use the Emo. The albums I used were Rick Wakeman (Six Wives of Henry VIII), Climax Blues Band (FM), and Maria Muldaur (Maria Muldaur) Not entirely sure what you mean by an RIAA curve, but it is definitely connected to the phono inputs of the Emo. I think what I'm going to do tomorrow is connect directly to the Pioneer SX-1250, and take the Emo out of the mix. Then perhaps enable the internal preamp and hook directly to the tube amps. Keep those thoughts and suggestions coming, I learn more every time I read your posts....!! Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Let's rule out amps and speaker problems.., does a CD play correctly and appear to have adequate bass? Sure does. Kick butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Are you using the internal high-pass crossover? Read the manual. What? Read the manual? We don't need no stinking manual.....I'm going to be (re) checking all of my connections in the morning.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) edited see below post Edited January 8, 2015 by Lemon string Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The manufacturer recommends a tracking force of 2 grams I noticed. I'd try going to the pioneers phono section and set it to MM. Good Luck you'll get it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 Going to try all of these suggestions in the am. The tonearm is really hard to adjust, but I think I've got it dialed in now with the 2 grams of tracking force. I will check with the same source material, as well as some others. thanks again all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Also, have tried several albums, both live and studio, and admittedly recorded in the mid to late 70's...I have cleaned them and they are in nice shape. ... The mids and high frequencies are very clear, but without the bass to balance, are quite tiring and irritating. I honestly didn't know what to expect, but is this typical of ... recordings of the era ... Try everything others have said first. This is probably not the problem, but, because it is hard to fit a whole lot of bass onto a vinyl disk, especially if the piece of music is long, vinyl -- particularly older vinyl recordings, rather than audiophile newer ones --may not have as much bass as some CDs, SACDs, and Blu-rays. Almost all true phono inputs are now RIAA. There used to be other choices, representing other curves, like EUR (European). About the only way you would have anything other than RIAA would be if you are mistakenly using a "flat" input, like "line in," or "aux," etc. If all else fails, get something with tone controls, and crank up the bass. Edited January 8, 2015 by Garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 An enormous amount of technical terminology in this post, so beware.... Well, after a whole lot of foolin' around with different configurations today, adjusting and readjusting the tracking force, etc, trying all sorts of source material, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that the (Audio-Technica LP120) TT pre-amp pretty much sucks, and the Emotiva phono stage sucks just marginally less. After doing another ton of reading, I learned that I'm not the only one that feels that way, and that many owners of this specific TT have actually gone in and disabled the internal pre-amp, due to the fact that even switching it "out", part of the pre-amp circuitry is still active, and degrades the signal.. Did something of an "A/B" test on it with the same amp, same speakers, same material, and believe me, the internal pre-amp is pathetic, IMHO, of course.....Sure, this isn't a big buck TT with a big buck "cart", but hey, I expected something a bit better. I do have "moderate buck" amps and speakers, so that last mile as they say is not the issue..... I think the low end improved somewhat after adjusting the tracking force, anti-skate, and waving a semi-dead orchid bloom over it a few times....But still not really acceptable. Checked every connection and switch setting twice, three times....took notes....yikes. I now have it completely out of the Emo, and hooked to a Pioneer SX-1250, playing through my Belles. Tone control is on....An old live John Mayall album playing right now (Movin' On). Great album BTW..... Not sure what I'm going to do with it....possibly move it to my "secondary" system (another 1250 and Cornwalls or La Scala's or Chorus II's). I really hate the thought of having to ship it back (although got it through Amazon at a good price). PIA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 if not satisfied now you never will be, amazon is great choose the return option where they have ups pick it up so all you have to do is rebox it, save that dough and get a TT you will enjoy there are plenty to be had new and used at decent prices that will not disappoint Just my 02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Perhaps a straightforward approach is best - just use an equalizer when playing vinyl and adjust to taste. An excellent example of using a parametric equalizer to set up presets: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/142681-cello-palette-ev-dc-one-simulation-program-settings/ This is what I use with my Yamaha SP2060 (active crossover) using previously unused parametric equalizer input channels to correct for poorly mixed vinyl --of which all is popular music from the 60s-80s that have problems, and mostly lack of bass. I've also used a DEQ2496 equalizer in the past which also worked well. Fortunately, most of the vinyl that I listen to (when I listen to vinyl, which is not very often) is good classical from DG, Philips, Decca, Archiv, etc. and requires no EQ at all. All my problems are rock albums and other popular music from the 60s-70s. Edited January 9, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You might be able to save what you have. If you can re-wire the table so it's just a table and cartridge then you can plug it into your phono section, you might have something that is passable. The Emos that I have heard are a bit lean and that's not working for you but there are ways around that also. A good table does bass very well and that's why people spend a lot of money on tables and cartridges. A good cartridge on a consumer table can work but you'll want to track above 2 grams. If you toss out what you have you'll want an audiophile all in one table in the 500 dollar price range (Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 You might be able to save what you have. If you can re-wire the table so it's just a table and cartridge then you can plug it into your phono section, you might have something that is passable. The Emos that I have heard are a bit lean and that's not working for you but there are ways around that also. A good table does bass very well and that's why people spend a lot of money on tables and cartridges. A good cartridge on a consumer table can work but you'll want to track above 2 grams. If you toss out what you have you'll want an audiophile all in one table in the 500 dollar price range (Music Hall, Pro-Ject, Rega). Ok, now we're getting somewhere....as I am relatively new at this vinyl thingie....should I be tracking above 2 grams on this TT? I have basically been following manufacturers suggestions (quite possibly a big mistake...), and didn't want to potentially damage anything....I guess it's worth a try, although I'm envisioning ribbons of black plastic curling up from the stylus as it goes round and round.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 (edited) Jimbo, Your problem is not the tracking of the cartridge. It really sounds like you don't have the correct RIAA curve working for you. However it could be that the quality of the table and cart just isn't good enough. My experience 30 years ago was that you need a pretty serious TT rig to match even a cheap CD player. CD players are really good (for the price). I had a budget busting TT rig back in the day. It would probably take a 3500-5000 dollar table to match that today. Now back to your issue. A table like the Audio-Technica LP120 you bought is not going to blow you away if you already had a decent CD player. You can put a better cartridge on a cheaper table but you'll have to track it at higher settings. It takes a good arm to go below 2 grams. At any rate tracking is not your issue. I'm thinking your TT/cart is not good enough. I really recommend calling a TT specialist and listen to what they have to say. Edited January 9, 2015 by russ69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon string Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You nailed it, the problem is the built in phono stage. Send the table back and buy a used one with out a built in phono stage. You'll get a better table for the same or less cash. With the gear you mentioned I put my money on the pioneer phono stage but I'd still recommend the emo stand alone unit for $150. I've auditioned it and it is really good. It stood up to my dynavector p-75 which is a lot more new, a lot. Don't give up on vinyl but like I said it is by far the most fickle and potential expensive dragon one can chase in the audio addiction. That said when its good, its sooooo good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You nailed it, the problem is the built in phono stage. Send the table back and buy a used one with out a built in phono stage. You'll get a better table for the same or less cash. With the gear you mentioned I put my money on the pioneer phono stage but I'd still recommend the emo stand alone unit for $150. I've auditioned it and it is really good. It stood up to my dynavector p-75 which is a lot more new, a lot. Don't give up on vinyl but like I said it is by far the most fickle and potential expensive dragon one can chase in the audio addiction. That said when its good, its sooooo good. and then get this external phono stage to start out with: http://schiit.com/products/mani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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