space_cowboy Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 I'm really curious about tube equipment and maybe ya'll can help me get started. Maybe it's not as complicated as is seems, but I get confused when I read about SET, push-pull, integrated, triode, pentode, etc. Maybe you could point me to some good reference material. Was looking at some entry level stuff from Antique Sound Lab's, but really don't know what I'm doing. Any new monies will be spent in this endeavor, kinda burnt out on HT. Thanks Mark ------------------ Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.0 Phono Preamp - Parasound PPH-100 Receiver - H/K AVR-210 DVD - Sony DVP-S360 TV - RCA 31" Mains - KLF-20 Center - KLF-C7 Surrounds - Optimus Pro LX-10 Sub - Yamaha YST-SW160 Reinforcement - JBL 4638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris K Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Space cowboy....I am also new to this equipment( tubes), and you will be educated by many true audiophiles in this forum. When someone such as Mobile Homeless offer a comment or suggestion listen to them and trust their jugdement. They are a true help> Kris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiming Posted August 10, 2002 Share Posted August 10, 2002 Here is a link to some good reading materials on vacuum tubes: http://firebottle.com/ampage/bbs/recread.cgi?sub=ga A comparison between transistors and tubes from the Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers: http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/select/0898/tubet1.html I think the most important thing is to go out and listen (if you can) and not base your purchase solely on other people's opinion as one man's meat is another man's poison. ------------------ Solstice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 12, 2002 Share Posted August 12, 2002 or try something simple like: http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/archives/ Rocking With Antique Sound Lab's $99 Wave 8 Monoblock Amplifiers and decide for yourself ------------------ Colin's Music System Cornwall 1s & Klipsch subs; lights out & tubes glowing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted August 12, 2002 Author Share Posted August 12, 2002 Thanks for the links Weiming and Colin. The review on the Wave 8's was uplifting and in fact I almost bought them some months ago. But now my question is on a preamp. If I go with tube mono's, is it personal preference for tube or SS preamp? I'm sure this is debatable. Will have to use my KLF-20's until I can score a good Heritage deal. And now for the idiotic question of the week since I've never had separates: does the TT and CD go into the preamp, and then the line in to the amps? Are all preamps designed for the speakers to go to another amp? I know this is very basic, but have to start somewhere, and I appreciate any input. Mark ------------------ Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.0 Phono Preamp - Parasound PPH-100 Receiver - H/K AVR-210 DVD - Sony DVP-S360 TV - RCA 31" Mains - KLF-20 Center - KLF-C7 Surrounds - Optimus Pro LX-10 Sub - Yamaha YST-SW160 Reinforcement - JBL 4638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike82 Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 I grew up listening to my dad's Fisher gear, so I had a taste of tubes at an early age. As a teen, I couldn't afford tube gear (didn't know how to build it either), so I had to settle on s-s. After I had the means to get tube gear, I started with p-p, then class A, then triode, and for the past few years I've been listening to SET. I also gravitated toward horns in my last few speakers choices and now listen to Khorns with a Korneff 45 and am loving it! As far as whether to use tube or s-s pre-amp with your tube amps, the general rule is tube pre-amp with tube amp (with s-s amps, you can use either tube or s-s- pre-amps). Probably better impedance matching and such. You can probably find a s-s pre-amp that sounds OK with a tube amp, but IMO, it's a step backward. While the Wave 8 seems like a bargain, they are what they are, ie, cheap tubes which sound like cheap tubes. You can find better gear for a few bucks more on Audiogon or Ebay. I don't know what kind of $$$ you're planning to spend, but as a starter, I'd recommend a EL34 based integrated amp, particularly the Audiomat Arpege (~$1000-1500 used mint). Great sound and pretty much unanimous reviews. I reviewed the Arpege for SoundStage! (www.soundstage.com)a couple years ago and was blown away! The Arpege was one of only two components I recommended for the Reviewer's Choice" award over a three year period. The oddly-designed Manley Stingray is also a good integrated amp. I'd avoid 6550/KT88 based amps- too heavy handed for efficient speakers. Please email me for further recommendations. Good Luck! ------------------ Transport: CEC TL-2X DAC: Audiomat Maestro Pre-amp: Wyetech Jade Amps: Jeff Korneff 45 Interconects: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Speaker cable: Analysis Plus Solo Monocrystal Power cords: CPCC Top Gun and Model 11 Line conditioner: CPCC Super Power Block Equip Stand: Grand Prix Audio Monaco Belle Klipsch, K-horns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Is the question "how did we get started" well............ here of coarse !! thanks to MDeneen, Mobile Homeless, Allan Songer, Jazzman and others peaking my interest with there awesome posts about Audio bliss !!! ------------------ HH Scott 299 Amp HH Scott LT-110B Tuner HH Scott P-87 Turn Table JVC JL-F50 Turn Table Sony CDP-CA7ES CD Drive 1985 Walnut Heresey I W/Layne Audio Woofers KSW-15 Subs>c> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Mark, I've done more than a few laps on the amp/pre-amp scene and I have my opinion. However, I am a "newbie" compared with some obvious, high-post'ers on this board. My very general comments are as follows: - If you're going horns, go low-wattage SET - For horns, tubes sound better than SS - ASL has good entry level product, but you'll be wanting for more, sooner than later - Get a good pre-amp first (tubes), amp second. What comes out of a tube amp is only as good as what goes in. - If you're going tubes, keep an eye out for nice "Heritage" speakers at a bargain, i.e.,: Heresy (I or II): < $350/pair Cornwall (old II's are the best (pre-1969)) < $600/pair Belle: < $600/each Klipschorn (any year): < $1300/pair LaScalas have their following ... just research them adequately; some complain about their lack of bass. The BEST sounding deal with tubes are above ... You really can't go wrong; if the above products are in decent condition, you can clean them up and turn a tidy profit. Good luck! ------------------ "Bullsh*t!" -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM Eico HF-81 Eico HFT-90 New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (KCBR's & ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShapeShifter Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 I periodically used an old Fisher 800B and liked the sound. But my true initiation into the revealing nature of tube equipment began after reading posts made by the more knowledgeable tube members mentioned in the previous posts. I lack their electronics skills, but do share their similar passion for realistically recreating an involving musical experience. I've made good and bad decisions along the way, but it has been a fun and rewarding experience. An experience I hope will continue for years to come. An old High School Instructor told me once: "One of the best approaches to a rewarding life is, Learn to Never Stop Learning". ------------------ KLIPSCH IS MUSICf> My Systems f>s>c> This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 08-13-2002 at 07:26 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted August 13, 2002 Author Share Posted August 13, 2002 Thanks for the replies..... -Mike82, not quite in your league yet, my budget is much lower right now _NOS440, agree there are very knowing people here, I could be worse off, I know what NOS is...don't know about the 440 though -Chris, my eyes are open for Heritage, some have pooped out here lately.......I'm looking -Shape, It's decided, the upgrade bug has bit and I can now see that it will hopefully be a lifelong hobby _Group, ordered a few things today, will comment next week. Starting low end, but what the heck, it can only get better, I'm in for the long haul Mark ------------------ Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.0 Phono Preamp - Parasound PPH-100 Receiver - H/K AVR-210 DVD - Sony DVP-S360 TV - RCA 31" Mains - KLF-20 Center - KLF-C7 Surrounds - Optimus Pro LX-10 Sub - Yamaha YST-SW160 Reinforcement - JBL 4638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 Space Cowboy, I found "How to Service Your Own Tube Amp" by Tom Mitchell a useful primer on tubes. It's available from Amazon.com. I've enjoyed getting my feet wet with a Dynaco SCA-35. It's spartan by comparison to other tube gear, but it's a leap over the SS receiver it replaced. BTW, if you think NOS stands for New Old Stock, you're wrong in this case. NOS440 refers to Craig's 440 cubic inch Camaro that runs nitrous oxide. Craig is a man of varied interests and talents. Craig, please check out my post on Squealing 7719's. I'd like your advice regarding testing pin voltages. Regards, Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 15, 2002 Share Posted August 15, 2002 you could always try building your own. Right now I'm working on a projevt using 4 KT88 tubes (high power stuff), when it's done, it should turn out about 100 watts of class AB power. I would choose this route for your first one, not only because it's much cheaper, but you learn tons! Tell me what you think. ------------------ -Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 How did you get started with tubes?Jazman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Mike, Since you asked.............. Whoa mdeneen, Recycle Stereo, I knew that store. Anyway,............ How did I get started? My mother still has the Fisher amp that was and is the core piece of the stereo console when I was a teenager. I still remember how great Ella Fitzgerald, and Dinah Washington, my first Miles Davis LPs among many would sound. The first tube amp I owned was a Dynaco ST-35 that I used for many years. I've always regretted selling that amp because without ever truly understanding why, it always made jazz sound so very good. I think I sold it because SS was literally and figureatively "cooler" at the time. I was on the verge of spending large dollars for McIntosh tubes, many, many, times because that's what I heard my first pair of Khorns and Belles paired with. Somehow I always talked myself out of it because of the space Khorns and Belles require, and a couple of good ski vacations could be had with the amount saved. Mobile pushed me back in the tube direction after I decided to have a serious, dedicated, 2 channel system for enjoying jazz, sharing no components for any purpose other than hours of listening pleasure. The years of bulletproof operation of the Dynaco did not require a leap of faith to go back to tubes. Once I hooked up the HF81 to the Belles, the desire for the refinement of SET was unstoppable. It also pushed me to really understand a lot more about what's happening under the cover as well. That pushed me to read "Principles of Power", A Practical Guide To Tube Power Amplifier Design by Kevin O'Connor. I'm still re-reading this book from time to time. Tubes and high efficency speakers can be a good combination, and not all tube amplifiers are "Flea powered" as some like to jab. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 16, 2002 Share Posted August 16, 2002 Mobile & Mdeneen Started with an Anthem Amp1 and Pre1L. There is no end to this -- you do know that, don't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted August 17, 2002 Share Posted August 17, 2002 I aggree, not all tube amps are flea powered. I was at the local hi fi sound store, and they are selling 450 watt monoblock tube amps. It's quite the site to see, can't imagine how much they weigh if my home mades weigh close to 85 pounds and mine is only 100 watts. Can't say I was impressed by the B&W speakers they had them hooked up to though. after horns, everything sounds so dull and boring. even 14,000 dollar B&W's! ------------------ -Trevor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
space_cowboy Posted August 20, 2002 Author Share Posted August 20, 2002 OK, here's what I did, be it good, bad, or indifferent. I got the ASL AQ2004DT preamp and the ASL Wave 8 mono blocks. Connected earlier and spent an hour or so with them and first impressions are good. Now, I have never heard tubes before, but already know it beats the H/K receiver's sound. LOL, the last tube thing I saw was a WWII radio me and my brother used to play "Army" with. Anyway, I listened to many different LP's from Harry James to Blondie to Bob James to Tom Scott and was impressed. I was surprised that these little things immediately pushed my 20's to volume I didn't push too far. Bass was tight and quick which surprised me, and the overall sound was a bit "warm" I guess, but not boring at all. So, my entry to tubes has been most pleasing, granted I'm no where near most of you; it can only get better. "Damn the deck, I need tubes". Two questions: 1. Is there a preffered or recommended power-up sequence? 2: The amp tubes glow, but the preamps don't, is this normal? Regards, Mark ------------------ Turntable - Pro-Ject 2.0 Phono Preamp - Parasound PPH-100 Receiver - H/K AVR-210 DVD - Sony DVP-S360 TV - RCA 31" Mains - KLF-20 Center - KLF-C7 Surrounds - Optimus Pro LX-10 Sub - Yamaha YST-SW160 Reinforcement - JBL 4638 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 20, 2002 Share Posted August 20, 2002 Power up? You mean they arent on all the time? heh... Yeah. Well, some do turn theirs off from time to time, even me when I feel in that frame of mind. As for powering up, I usually have my preamp on standby all the time, only turing off my amps. Some believe it important to do it in sequence. I personally have never seen either way involve a disaster but I generally have my preamp on before the amps if you are into an exact answer here. Although to be really exact, the standby is usually engaged with that being flipped last, after the amps are on. As for tube glow, some tubes glow more than other but as a general rule, power tubes DO glow more than preamp tubes although, as I said, this is general. Sometimes it varies with the tube make as well as the type. OTher times it obviously varies with the type of circuit as well as how hard you are running the beasts. Some tubes have different types of behaviors - the Sovtek 2A3 runs almost completely dark, even with the lights out, you can barely see a glow. Other 2A3 run far brighter. Preamp tubes generally are not doing the heavy duty job of the outputs but some do put out a healthy glow. So in answer to your question, I wouldnt worry about it at all; it's quite normal. One thing I would keep in mind; the little WAVE 8's are great little amps for the ducats but are really nowhere near what tube amps can do. Look forward to better things down the line with upgrades. Also, look forward to recouping your entire expense with the little WAVE amps come selling time. They sell used about what they cost new. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshannon Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Basically I got into tubes by reading this forum. I always heard that tubes were better, but no one I knew had them. I read a review of ASL Wave 8 mono blocks by Colin Flood and bought 4 of them and used two and kept 2 NIB (BTW they are all on sale at www.Echohifi.com). I liked them and soon wanted more/better. Someone (on this board) warned me that that would happen. I saw a Marantz 8 and bought it and am waiting for its arrival. I'm thinking that now I may need a better preamp than my Van Alstine modded Dynaco PAS, but don't know what is better (other than a Marantz 7 which is too costly when on Ebay). I basically read this forum, asked questions, and look at other people's systems and try to experiment in my budget. I figured a Marantz 8 would last me a really long time and would be hard to do substantially better without spending a huge amount of money. I guess that is my criteria, the intersection of cost and performance. Hopefully a Marantz 8 and Cornwalls combination would be hard to beat (in my office). At home I have a 5 year old, so I'm still a solid state guy there. -Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkyhambone Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 wow, a 6 year nap. good morning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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