New home search issues

[Edgar]

 

Wasn't it Oklahoma a year or two ago where most of the people who died were actually in the basement? 7 kids actually drowned in one.

 

 

North America averages something like 1300 tornadoes per year. And you have identified one exceptional case.

 

Like I said, it takes an EF4-EF5 to make a basement not any safer than being above ground. F4 only occurs 1.1% of the time; F5 less than 0.1% (numbers actually for original Fujita Scale on Wikipedia).

 

Oklahoma probably experiences more strong tornadoes than any place on Earth. (I used to live in Oklahoma City.) Everywhere else, go to the basement.

 

Apologies for the thread hijack. I'll be quiet now.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Edgar

[Budman]

Congrats Budman!!!

Are you going to do a build thread?

won't be doing a build thread. its a ranch style home with a 20x20 bonus room on the 2nd floor so i have options.

[agile1966]

No worries Edgar.

I have looked at a few homes with bonus rooms. I really like the idea of a ranch with a basement. Second choice would be something like a bonus room above the garage. The thing I would love about a bonus room is actually having the theater on a suspended floor. As has been talked about in other threads. You miss some of the tactile joys of subs on a concrete slab.

Using one of the garage bays is not an option as I have a love for autos and a project car will be in my future as well as a motorcycle.

[Ceptorman]

my new home theater basement poured last week

That's a nice sized basement. I like the use of steel ibeams. Will the concrete guys lay plastic down before pouring the floor? It's a great radon gas barrier, as well as moisture. Radon is the number 2 or 3 cause of lung cancer.

[garyrc]

Actually, most every basement that I've seen on this forum--almost without exception-have ceilings lower than I'd like to live with.  Eight feet or less is just a little too low, IMHO. Nine to ten feet is much, much better.  I'd look for rooms with higher ceilings.

 

Agreed!

 

Look for good corners, in case you someday get Klipschorns, or some other corner horn!

 

We had to rebuild a room in our house to get a good, high ceilinged, Home Theater and music listening room.

 

I you do build or rebuild, consider double walls if you have space and $$$.  It might allow you to play your movies at Reference Level, or near it, without trouble with neighbors.  If you don't have space for double walls (two sets of 2x6 studs, two sole plates and top plates, with an air space between, but only an two air-tight wall "skins" of plywood and thick sheetrock with staggered seams on the inside, and thick siding on the outside), you can resort to conentional single studing with inside walls of 3/4 plywood covered with thick sheetrock, with staggered seams.  That's what we did, and we play movies at about 5 dB below reference (on the average), but only before 10 PM.  Even though you wouldn't be building a studio, take a look at Jeff Cooper's book, Building a Home Recording Studio -- it's a gold mine of info, for quite a range of budgets.

 

There's information on good room proportions for audio online, but start with a high ceiling, and avoid any distances (L,W, H) being equal.  If you use tube amplifiers with Khorns (or any other very high efficiency speakers), you will want to avoid hum problems, so don't have any distances equal to the wave length of 60 Hz hum.  I think it is 19 feet, but I'm not sure.  It's on Google.

Edited April 15, 2015 by garyrc

[agile1966]

Thanks Gary!! Will take a look at the Cooper book. I knew there were proportions to stay away from, but didn't know the exact equation to avoid.

Not to offend anyone that does this, but I am amazed how many people put their flat screens above the fireplace. I have see some that the bezel of the tv is touching the ceiling.

[LarryC]

I guess you can say that people die in basements sometimes just like sometimes a person can be killed by a seat belt.  Most of the time they will save you though.  I'm sure my friends in Joplin would have liked to have made it to their neighbors basement before the tornado hit.    

What about the "safe rooms" shown on TV?  They are above ground IIRC, but are designed to shield against objects hurled at over 100 mph.  They ought to have had a few of those in Moore, OK, except some didn't want to spend the money to build them at schools.

 

https://www.fema.gov/safe-rooms

safe rooms

Edited April 15, 2015 by LarryC

[J M O N]

Curious if everyone here is similar to me in that one of the first things you look for in a new home is the potential for a theater setup.

 

Yep, I'm going through this at the moment.  But in reality, it has been finding a house with the proper corners for Klipschorns, which may be even harder to do.  I was successful in the first house I bought but not in the second.  The plan was to build an addition as there was plenty of land available, but alas that never materialized before moving again.  I've been looking for the next candidate, but it can be even harder when you have a wife that also wants some of her requirements to be met! 

[SuBXeRo]

Finding the right house is difficult.  We looked at some many house and to find one that we liked and that had a wall large enough to do home theater on properly was my issue.  We don't have basements in AZ, mostly because the ground is so damn hard and the pipes don't really freeze so the need for a basement isn't really there.  We weren't looking for a dedicated room but more of an open concept living room area that could hold everything.  Having a dedicated room of a good size means a big house and more money but usually easier to find big rooms and more of them in bigger homes.

[Max2]

Some of you may have seen the Tornado shelters that they are putting in the garage floor. A good friend put one in and we liked it a lot and are still considering one.  My thing is, what if you only have time to get one car out to access it which would leave one car in the garage?  I know the probabilities are scarce, but Tornados seem to defy these at times. Anyway, what if a gas tank in the vehicle was damaged and it started leaking into the shelter?  Or worse, what if tons on debris were on top of the shelter door and you couldn't get out with the petro leaking in? Im wondering if an old school hole in the backyard with a fiberglass shelter would be better?

[muel]

I would not get one that has a door that opens out.  Also, a saw should be on your list of contents for your shelter.  I would definitely not place it where I would have to move anything to be able to get in.   The shelter has to be where you can get to it quickly enough.  My parents installed a shelter in their garage even though they could not have possibly gotten to it in time when the tornado hit in Joplin.  In fact, they would have been outside trying to get to the garage and could have been hurt.  It makes them feel better to have something though.  They were safest in the hall where they were and just lucky they were only on the edge of the funnel.  

 

Damaged fuel tank leak??  My shelter has a threshold that would not allow anything to flow over unless it was really flooding.  There are somethings you just can't prevent.  If a tornado destroys your house and you are in the shelter a car could land on your shelter no matter where you place it!  You could also have a natural gas leak that explodes shortly after the tornado.  You are worrying about an unlikely event but sometimes you are just screwed.  You just do the best you can.   

 

I built my above ground safe room when adding on to the house about 15 years ago following (and exceeding) the FEMA guidlines of the time.  They describe all kinds of shelters including shelters built in house using a closet or bathroom.  

[J M O N]

After about a year searching, I have finally found success in a home purchase.  Not only does this room have good "Klipschorn corners," it actually has four of them, which is what I was hoping for (but not expecting). There is a large shelf unit that will need to be removed to uncover one of the corners.  Size is about 24' by 21', so it has plenty of room for everything needed and the layout was exactly what I was hoping for.  The rest of the house met our other needs as well.  Room is primarily for music, but will also be used as a home theater.  A projector will eventualy find its way in.

 

 

 

 

 

[garyrc]

Large rooms are fine, but "open concept" rooms tend to make things difficult acoustically.  L and R channel balance can be problematic.  Possible SPL can be too low.  Achieving a good center image and Audyssey-like room optimumization is more difficult. 

 

An alternative would be to look for a house with a room with 4 good walls and a high ceiling, that is large enough for Home Theater, doing double duty as a music listening room, with the listener sitting in the center seat(s).  For ambient music in other areas of the house, leave the door open.  We built a combo HT and Music room just off the kitchen, dining room and living room.  With the solid core door closed (tightly) we get great HT/Music; for dining and entertaining, opening the door works fine.

Edited September 20, 2015 by garyrc

[Chris A]

After about a year searching, I have finally found success in a home purchase.  Not only does this room have good "Klipschorn corners," it actually has four of them, which is what I was hoping for (but not expecting). There is a large shelf unit that will need to be removed to uncover one of the corners.  Size is about 24' by 21', so it has plenty of room for everything needed and the layout was exactly what I was hoping for.  The rest of the house met our other needs as well.  Room is primarily for music, but will also be used as a home theater.  A projector will eventualy find its way in.

 

 

 

Actually I would say that--assuming that you're thinking only about Khorns here--you've got three good corners and one that you'd have to do something to put a Khorn into.  If you are using that corner, then a false corner or a 60th Anniversary Edition-style enclosed Khorn back would work.  Of course, one other solution is to move up to Jubilees (2-way)--then you've got 4 corners that will work without any modifications needed.

 

The room's x-y dimensions are a bit square (i.e., closer to equal dimensions) but I believe you'll be okay in terms of LF modes -- you'll have to pay some attention to where you're placing you're listening positions to avoid spotty bass response at those positions below ~30 Hz (assuming HT use).  I assume the height is 9 feet: is that correct?

 

I personally don't believe that you're going to have any issues with filling that room with sound, in fact, I think that you'll love the larger dimensions in terms of diffuse reflections and sense of envelopment.

 

If you're thinking about a HT, what kind of loudspeakers were you contemplating?

 

Chris

Edited September 20, 2015 by Chris A

[Chris A]

Large rooms are fine, but "open concept" rooms tend to make things difficult acoustically. L and R channel balance can be problematic. Possible SPL can be too low. Achieving a good center image and Audyssey-like room optimization is more difficult.

 

Assuming Khorns in two front corners and a clear area within 6 feet of the Khorns (no furniture or wall irregularities over or near the Khorns and center loudspeaker within 4-6 feet), the imaging should be good.  Although at 21 feet width, you've reached about the limit of good Khorn imaging without a center loudspeaker like a La Scala or a Belle (...but not the K-402 two-way Jubilee's limit). I do recommend horn-loaded subs for rooms of this size.  Typical consumer-grade direct radiating subs can't handle the full HT subwoofer load in a room sized like this one.

 

PWK himself said that he didn't like to use Cornwalls or Heresies between two Khorns.  The only acoustic difference between a Belle or La Scala and a Cornwall is the bass bin: Cornwalls have K-33 direct radiating woofers in a vented cabinet and Belles/La Scalas have the same woofer in a front-loaded horn.  I've found that the Belle or La Scala can work very well between two Jubs - but they need to be time-aligned.  I've posted settings to do that using a active digital crossover for the center.  Those center crossover settings also work extremely well between two Khorns.

 

Chris

Edited September 20, 2015 by Chris A

[garyrc]

 

Large rooms are fine, but "open concept" rooms tend to make things difficult acoustically. L and R channel balance can be problematic. Possible SPL can be too low. Achieving a good center image and Audyssey-like room optimization is more difficult.

 

Assuming Khorns in two front corners and a clear area within 6 feet of the Khorns (no furniture or wall irregularities over or near the Khorns and center loudspeaker within 4-6 feet), the imaging should be good.  Although at 21 feet width, you've reached about the limit of good Khorn imaging without a center loudspeaker like a La Scala or a Belle (...but not the K-402 two-way Jubilee's limit). I do recommend horn-loaded subs for rooms of this size.  Typical consumer-grade direct radiating subs can't handle the full HT subwoofer load in a room sized like this one.

 

PWK himself said that he didn't like to use Cornwalls or Heresies between two Khorns.  The only acoustic difference between a Belle or La Scala and a Cornwall is the bass bin: Cornwalls have K-33 direct radiating woofers in a vented cabinet and Belles/La Scalas have the same woofer in a front-loaded horn.  I've found that the Belle or La Scala can work very well between two Jubs - but they need to be time-aligned.  I've posted settings to do that using a active digital crossover for the center.  Those center crossover settings also work extremely well between two Khorns.

 

Chris

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

Just to clarify, I was responding to an earlier poster who said he had looked for an "open concept living room."     He didn't specify the type of speakers.  I've read many posts on various forums in which people complained about "open concept" rooms.  I think JMON's room is great!  Our Khorns are in a room about 17 x 25, with a high ceiling, and they sound great.  I agree with your earlier post in which you said that most or all basements have ceilings that are too low, especially for Khorns.  I remember Heyser recommended a thick rug and a high ceiling for Khorns in his classic review.

 

Gary

Edited September 20, 2015 by garyrc

[J M O N]

Actually I would say that--assuming that you're thinking only about Khorns here--you've got three good corners and one that you'd have to do something to put a Khorn into.  If you are using that corner, then a false corner or a 60th Anniversary Edition-style enclosed Khorn back would work.  Of course, one other solution is to move up to Jubilees (2-way)--then you've got 4 corners that will work without any modifications needed.

 

The room's x-y dimensions are a bit square (i.e., closer to equal dimensions) but I believe you'll be okay in terms of LF modes -- you'll have to pay some attention to where you're placing you're listening positions to avoid spotty bass response at those positions below ~30 Hz (assuming HT use).  I assume the height is 9 feet: is that correct?

 

I personally don't believe that you're going to have any issues with filling that room with sound, in fact, I think that you'll love the larger dimensions in terms of diffuse reflections and sense of envelopment.

 

If you're thinking about a HT, what kind of loudspeakers were you contemplating?

 

Chris

 

 

Yes, the plan is to remove that corner unit to free up the fourth corner.  I'll be using Klipschorns along with a Belle center.  Jubilees may be a possibility in the future (I am hoping to hear them first however).  Two-channel music was the primary consideration of this setup with the home theater system augmenting what will already exist for two-channel.  There is no compromise to the two-channel setup.  I've done this before with great results on both the Music and HT side.

 

Unfortunately the ceiling height is only 8', which was about the only negative I found with the room.  From a HT perspective, it will limit my screen size especially since I will have a tall center channel, but I should still be able to get a pretty good-sized screen in there if I take it all the way to the ceiling. But all-in-all, it was still be best room I was able to find without building a house from scratch which we really didn't want to do.  I'll consider room treatments if they are neccesssary.

[garyrc]

 

Actually I would say that--assuming that you're thinking only about Khorns here--you've got three good corners and one that you'd have to do something to put a Khorn into.  If you are using that corner, then a false corner or a 60th Anniversary Edition-style enclosed Khorn back would work.  Of course, one other solution is to move up to Jubilees (2-way)--then you've got 4 corners that will work without any modifications needed.

 

The room's x-y dimensions are a bit square (i.e., closer to equal dimensions) but I believe you'll be okay in terms of LF modes -- you'll have to pay some attention to where you're placing you're listening positions to avoid spotty bass response at those positions below ~30 Hz (assuming HT use).  I assume the height is 9 feet: is that correct?

 

I personally don't believe that you're going to have any issues with filling that room with sound, in fact, I think that you'll love the larger dimensions in terms of diffuse reflections and sense of envelopment.

 

If you're thinking about a HT, what kind of loudspeakers were you contemplating?

 

Chris

 

 

Unfortunately the ceiling height is only 8', which was about the only negative I found with the room.  From a HT perspective, it will limit my screen size especially since I will have a tall center channel, but I should still be able to get a pretty good-sized screen in there if I take it all the way to the ceiling. But all-in-all, it was still be best room I was able to find without building a house from scratch which we really didn't want to do.  I'll consider room treatments if they are neccesssary.

 

 

If you get an acoustically transparent (electric roll-down) screen, like the ones made by Seymour, you could start it at the ceiling and have it come down in front of the tall center channel.  We actually have our Belle raised up behind a big Seymour AT screen, so that the tweeter is the same height as those of the R & L Khorns.  The Seymour really is almost acoustically transparent, and with Audyssey, it measures (with REW) actually a bit better than the Khorns in the upper frequencies.  The whole system looks and sounds great.

 

Consider a 2.35:1 screen, which makes 'scope look great.

Edited September 22, 2015 by garyrc

[agile1966]

Congrats on the new residence Chris.

 

We signed a contract and the framing should start this week.  Unfortunately, the bonus room above the garage was not in the cards nor the budget.  So we will have a family room based system.  Will utilize the Ultra2s, in ceiling speakers for Atmos.  Looking at the CDT 5800 CII for the 4 ceiling speakers.  Wire from Monoprice is delivered tomorrow.  Will wire speakers on the patio and the garage as well as full network.  Looking at the 70" Vizio as an interim Monitor until the 4K specs get settled down a little.

 

Mark

[J M O N]

If you get an acoustically transparent (electric roll-down) screen, like the ones made by Seymour, you could start it at the ceiling and have it come down in front of the tall center channel.  We actually have our Belle raised up behind a big Seymour AT screen, so that the tweeter is the same height as those of the R & L Khorns.  The Seymour really is almost acoustically transparent, and with Audyssey, it measures (with REW) actually a bit better than the Khorns in the upper frequencies.  The whole system looks and sounds great.

 

Consider a 2.35:1 screen, which makes 'scope look great.

 

Yeah, that could be a good idea.  I didn't really want to have the screen that far into the room though but at least if it is retractable it will only be there while watching movies.  I can still get a pretty good-sized screen either way -- I estimated the screen can be about 60" tall and I'm pretty much unlimited in width (so a 2.35:1 screen would be easy to accommodate).  Thanks for the suggestion.