still having issues with computer based playback...

[Schu]

I am really trying to get this computer based storage and streaming thing ip to snuff, yet no matter what I try I can not get the sound quality anywhere near the standard disc based playback. Even though the disc based playback is running at 44k and the computer based playback of an ape file is running at 192k, the disc is way ahead in dimension, separation and liveliness.  it's not that the ape file is bad sounding, as a matter of fact it is extremely smooth and grain free, but it still lacks dimension and separation. those computer files sound very flat... very well resolved and crystal clear... but flat.

 

I bought a brand new computer and run full jriver and ape files ripped from original source CD's or high res download. using the same DAC for both conversions unless jriver is doing something to the file before routing out of the usb port to the wyred dac.

 

anyone have any ideas or is that what we give up for the sake of convenience?

 

I could live with the jriver usb wyred solution if I had never experienced the oppo coax wyred playback. but I know the difference.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Schu

[Chris A]

Try playing back a flac or wav file at the same bit rate/depth as the disc from your computer and play with something like foobar2000 or other non-commercial (freeware) application, listening for the same qualities that you hear from disc-based Oppo playback.

 

It sure sounds like some extra processing is occurring on the digital side (JRiver), or alternatively something related to the analog amplification and coupling downstream of the DAC.

 

Chris

[TJIann]

Wow, I've never experienced this.  I have a small laptop with an external 4GB hard drive with all of my FLAC files (some ripped CDs, others HD downloads) running via an HDMI cable to my OPPO BD103.  It then goes via direct analog output to my McIntosh MX119 preamp and then to my poweramps.  The only issues I've ever experienced is a slight delay in the start of a song on the 24/192 HD files at times.  Sound quality is great.  I use Foobar 2000 as my FLAC player.  Is JRiver somehow processing the files when it uploads them?

[joessportster]

I run Jriver and do not have this issue either, check your playback settings I have all my output set to 96 / 24 (highest my dac will support) and selected output as ASIO V-Link  all files are FLAC laptop runs straight to my music fidelity Vlink converter, that plugs to the Havana dac, and then amp, speakers / headphones

 

easily sounds as good as any CDP I have had / heard..........................I found the DAC makes all the difference in the WORLD I choose NOS dacs as they sound much more analog to me 

Edited June 14, 2015 by joessportster

[Schu]

it's not the dac... of that I am sure.  both playbacks are using the same dac, the only difference is the input (usb versus coax) and files. perhaps the usb3 output stage is not up to snuff. iTunes lossless is even worse. jriver is a much better playback source in my system.

 

the dac is good to 3824/32 and 128dsd topping out at 192/24 via usb

 

Edited June 14, 2015 by Schu

[Chris A]

So you're talking about digital bits/words only, right?  Including parity checking?  Perhaps it's something else.

 

It could be that you've got a bit of a jitter problem--but only if there is suppressed internal clock scheme being used at the DAC itself for whatever digital bus you're using, such as S/PDIF.  This would sound like opaqueness at the highest frequencies.  But before you think that, note that loudspeaker FM distortion is at least an order of magnitude higher than equivalent bus jitter effects or 100x-1000x higher than DAC clock jitter.  This includes Cornwalls.

 

I really believe that you've got a JRiver algorithm problem, i.e., they aren't just transmitting stored digital words without monkeying with them somehow. 

 

And sensitive ears.

 

 

Chris

Edited June 14, 2015 by Chris A

[Schu]

i think I agree about the issue being playback interface related... jriver. I tthink there may be a setting I am missing.

 

like I had mentioned, its not a resolution issue... everything is very well resolved with no granularity. it's that dimension and space is somehow lost.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Schu

[Chris A]

That sounds like phase changes between channels (and perhaps to a much lesser extent at the crossover regions of the loudspeakers: midrange-tweeter, for instance).

 

That's going to be either an analog output issue (downstream of the DAC), or something related to channel phase offset in the DAC output, such as the old 1980s style of delta-sigma DACs being used to decode both stereo channels, introducing time delay offset between channels. 

 

I'm not aware of any differences in digital bus type decoding differences, such as HDMI, USB, S/PDIF, etc. that would do that...but it's possible. That would mean that the DAC end of the pipeline would be handling (i.e., buffering or redirecting to left or right channel DAC output) the interleaved L-R channel digital words differently because of internal bus interface implementation differences.

 

Chris

Edited June 14, 2015 by Chris A

[muel]

Lot of things could be going on here... 

You might have it plugged into a USB 3.0 port but it is only using version 1 without a driver or 2.0 with a driver.  I'm assuming you have the USB driver loaded from WYRED.  You can't play high res files on a PC without it.  Even if it is loaded you have to be sure it is the output selected in your player.  Sometimes, you will still get sound from a high res file even though you don't have the correct output selected and it usually sounds like krap.  You don't want to use DS preferably.

Is the windows tablet in the picture your new PC or are you just using that as a remote control?  You should also check for latency on your PC... that can make things sound bad too... use DPC Latency checker.  This gives you a start for things to check.  

[MyOwn]

I have the exact same DAC but am MAC Mini and Channel D Pure Music, with Pure Music there are settings that simply can mess the sound up considerably, I have had to select reset in Pure Music to get back to normal a few times. I use Attempt Only Power Of Two Upsampling, this works great until a DSD file is played, after the DSD file is complete and another PCM file is selected Pure Music goes back to Native playback and I have to select upsample again. Need to call Channel D on this...

Anyway upsampled PCM music sounds awesome here. Maybe the link below can help

https://wyred4sound.com/sites/default/files/J%20River%20DSD%20Setup%20Guide_0.pdf

[Schu]

interesting couple of posts... let me look at a few things.

 

yes, using the wyred drivers

Edited June 14, 2015 by Schu

[Quiet_Hollow]

FWIW - I've never read or experienced anything overwhelmingly positive about audio over USB into a DAC as a hi-fi solution. Like Dolby Atmos for the home, I'm perplexed how it even gains momentum on the market. Not to say that there could easily be something happening at an input stage somewhere along the way, but with USB there's a lot more to it than just moving PCM audio data from point A to point B. Needlessly complex IMO.

 

Also not too fond of straying too far from FLAC, AIFF, or WAV for lack of hardware support.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Quiet_Hollow

[Schu]

I think the main positive for usb interconnection is its ability to transfer very large data throughputs with reduced jitter effects as long as it is designed well.

dsd certainly relies on it and I have read that the input/output stage of a source or dac has a GREAT effect on jitter and dimension. I know its not the wyred usb stage because of all the work that went into that galvanized section... the surface pro3, I am not to sure about.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Schu

[Chris A]

I think the main positive for usb interconnection is its ability to transfer very large data throughputs with reduced jitter effects as long as it is designed well.

I was hoping not to have to address this.

 

What you are referring to is bit slip on a bus, not jitter, and the effect is periodic data word loss, and remember that we're talking about infrequently losing one data word at 22.05 kHz sample rate per channel, something that has to be very, very bad before it becomes audible even for brief moments. 

 

Every bus that I know of but TOSLINK (i.e., S/PDIF on fiber optic link) uses buffers and local clocks for their DACs (i.e., "DAC jitter" as completely separate from "bus jitter").  You need to pay the most attention to DAC clocks, not bus clocks, and DAC clocks are usually modules that are sold along with the DAC chips themselves.  I've found that "audiophiles" that talk about bus jitter (except of course TOSLINK jitter) also tend to be proponents of magic rocks and $10K cables--because they don't really understand the quantified physical effects at the listening chair of what these error sources actually mean.

 

Also, the level of jitter seen in real life must be well in excess of 1 microsecond at 500 Hz--the most sensitive human hearing system frequency band for detecting jitter effects.  In most cases, jitter on the order of even 70 microseconds is not detectable.  I've got many articles on this if you're interested.

 

The bottom line: if you're not paying close attention to loudspeaker FM and AM distortion, you shouldn't really be interested at all in DAC jitter since the FM/AM distortion sidebands on loudspeaker drivers are at least an order of magnitude worse than DAC jitter, and the effect of DAC jitter is exactly the same effect at your listening position as FM distortion at high frequencies. See http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1104red/

 

Chris

Edited June 15, 2015 by Chris A

[JL Sargent]

Chris, that is interesting stuff that I for one wasn't even aware existed. I simply don't believe I can hear this effect, but apparently Schu can hear it?

[Quiet_Hollow]

I don't feel jitter has anything to do with what Schu is experiencing.

[tromprof]

You may have done this but the output mode with JRiver will greatly affect the sound. If you haven't tried this:

Go to out mode

Select audio

select WASAPI

You might also try ASIO. I find WASAPI better with modern DACs.

JRiver seems to default to "direct sound" but I think that still leaves Windows affecting the sound. 

[muel]

Yep... Don't want direct sound. I prefer wasapi as well. "Jitter" is the word people use sometimes when they don't know what else to call what they are hearing. They just don't know what to call it but they ARE hearing something unpleasing.

[Schu]

no one mentioned hearing jitter here...

 

and fyi... I mentioned experiencing Doppler to dean when I first installed my cross overs. its in my cross over thread. If I were to explain jitter to someone, I would explain it's audibility in terms of granularity... not in terms of a Doppler shift.

 

this thread is dealing with neither...

 

pure direct seems like the most likely cause right now.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Schu

[Chris A]

I don't feel jitter has anything to do with what Schu is experiencing.

 

I agree.  However, I only addressed the comment...

 

 

I think the main positive for usb interconnection is its ability to transfer very large data throughputs with reduced jitter effects as long as it is designed well.

 

Why you would mention it at all in context. and then deny it has relevance is a bit mysterious...

 

Again, I think you have a JRiver issue.  Not being a current user of that product, I can't suggest any fixes other than "try something else" and listen for the same artifacts.

 

Chris

Edited June 15, 2015 by Chris A