Guest David H Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 If you say it's all good, then it's all good. It's all good. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 If you say it's all good, then it's all good. It's all good. Dave There ya go... cold war is over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Naseum Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 most of the "audiophiles" have either been run off or vacated the premises due to boredom. So, that's what happened! Years ago, I remember reading that klipsch forum was filled with rabid audiophiles. I wondered about that Mr. Deang dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 He is just here to stir things up.. If you want to interpret me clearing up some seriously bad information around here as "stirring things up" then I guess we can go with that. I feel like I am trying to explain that the earth revolves around the sun here while the majority is still hoping not to fall off the edge of the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Craig and me used to cut into all of these different capacitors, regardless of price, to see what we could learn through examining their construction. The real eye opener was Solen, that drops globs of solder where the leads enter the capacitor, melting the delicate film material. Dayton uses a paste, which is the normal method for metallized types - since there isn't anything for the solder to adhere to. In the pictures I posted, the small capacitors next to the Mundorfs are the stock capacitors, which are 100Vdc oval polyesters. I can get these for about 50 cents, and they are about the worst thing you can use in the signal path -- in series with the horn is just awful. Bob Stout says they start as normal capacitors (cylinders), and are then pressed into the oval shape we see -- which normally causes damage to the delicate film. I am supposed to believe that there is no real discernible difference between these two very different capacitors. In the Great Capacitor Shootout that took place at Part Express here in Dayton -- no one could tell a difference between ANYTHING. A quick note before I lock the thread -- I never said we weren't modifying RF-7s anymore, I said we weren't going to be doing RF-7iis anymore. However, my son, Austin, informed me tonight that he doesn't mind doing them. This is quickly turning into a situation where I may just end up dealing with the email while Austin handles the bench -- we're still working out the details. I'm locking the thread because I asked that it not be ruined. I didn't think that was asking for a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Sloth, you were just really harsh towards Josh in that other thread. He's good people and didn't deserve that. When I was fighting Cancer, Craig began marshaling the troops and had a collection taken up for me. Everyone was so generous and amazing, but when I saw what Josh sent me, I was prompted to send it back, but he wouldn't take it. When I read your comment, my heart sank. I have a feeling that Josh is an incredibly generous person as a matter of course -- and you really do owe him an apology. Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 There is always that problem of preference. I liked the OIMP V-Cap quite a bit, which I normally used in the SuperX (what was the Super AA). It's funny that you should bring it up, because I was thinking of dumping the design. When I mentioned it to Austin, he freaked out -- he's apparently very partial to that circuit. I had no idea until last night. I'm just one of those people that prefers the sound of the Type A or Type AA. I know Cameron likes the V-cap SuperX quite a bit too. Since I'm turning the building over to Austin, I have a feeling that network is staying. I really wanted to simplify, but it's not going to be as easy as I thought. If you buy an inexpensive network, you will eventually wonder what something else sounds like. I think it's better to do some research and then zero in on something you're really going to stay with over the long haul. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Sloth, you were just really harsh towards Josh in that other thread. He's good people and didn't deserve that. When I was fighting Cancer, Craig began marshaling the troops and had a collection taken up for me. Everyone was so generous and amazing, but when I saw what Josh sent me, I was prompted to send it back, but he wouldn't take it. When I read your comment, my heart sank. I have a feeling that Josh is an incredibly generous person as a matter of course -- and you really do owe him an apology. Seriously. I will and do apologize. I seriously didn't mean any harm. I think you guys have a background I am unaware of and took what said out of context. I never said Josh has never done anything good with is money. I am sure he is a great guy. There will always be people feeding off of people's hopes and dreams, snake oil salesmen. They claim magical properties from non magical items without explanation. I just don't like those sort of people and didn't want them to get ahead. Again I am also not calling anyone a snake oil salesmen here. I just don't like movers and shakers that want to sell something to make a quick buck. Josh I am sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Sloth... you're not my savior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Sloth... you're not my savior. Trust me pal you are beyond being saved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Cool, Sloth. Cool, Dave. Sloth, I don't like those people either. Anyone that knows or deals with me knows that I have a healthy respect for measurements, hence that first post which I felt contained some very good data. Manufacturers of these various parts are put in the strangest of positions. They make great parts that exceed mil-spec at every level, but then have to both separate themselves from the other manufacturers and their parts, and also have to show or demonstrate using language that a layperson will understand. Of course they don't, and they know it, hence all of the idiotic marketing voodoo verbiage. Here's the thing though, don't forget that we started with a truly great measuring part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 With complaints coming in from good members I have reviewed this entire thread. For now, I am leaving it to DeanG to lock when he sees fit. There's been unnecessarily incendiary comments made, but also a lot of the gentlemanly response that characterizes the Klipsch forums from all of the others and has for over a decade and a half. DeanG is a Heritage Member and has earned the right moderate his own posts. Granted, as Chad says, even moderators are not immune from moderation. I am closing the reports on this one for the moment and hoping for the best. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Redacted: I am getting ready to do some of my own XO fiddling so this thread is especially interesting and helpful to me at this time. I appreciate everybody sharing their knowledge. -Dave Edited October 5, 2015 by wvu80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I was always hoping that I could change the culture a little -- most of the "audiophiles" have either been run off or vacated the premises due to boredom. I very much enjoy the audiophile discussions, but the part I find annoying is how quick people are to associate cause to what is corollary behavior. With the caps.....I would have argued to death a long time ago that a cap is a cap. I see it differently now in large part due to the audiophile obsession, but I come away with a much different nuance. Dean, I get your point that the 'reasons why' doesn't matter to the non-technical audiophile, but there is nothing wrong with exploring that either. I personally think it's more important to understand why because it helps build a recipe for decision making. Sometimes the 'reason why' may be a cognitive bias. The thing I've never understood about the audiophile world is the massive aversion to listening methods that attempt to remove some of those biases. On the flip side, no educated person should ever suggest that any listening method is complete in its exploration of a variable. Ironically the intense emotional distress of an audiophile in a controlled listening environment actually makes them way worse at listening.....all this fear about an ego getting tarnished. And why is it a bad thing that cognitive bias is the reason? The fact remains that a cognitive bias is a very real experienced phenomenon... something different was absolutely heard. Why not have marketing material lure us into a deeper sense of refinement? Nobody disagrees that it enhances our enjoyment. Getting back to caps....I'm not trying to say they don't matter. Nor do I want to discuss the massive shortcomings of many of the listening comparisons mentioned. What's more interesting (especially to a real audiophile) is describing the specific passages and scenarios where the discernable difference occurs. The reality is that certain source material will exacerbate issues more readily than others... At work, the audiophiles I trust are the ones that point out when and where something matters. And they only point it out when they hear it. I never cease to be amazed by what things some people can hear. I'm also amazed by what things they don't hear. The way our hearing works is incredibly complex, and then the social engineering surrounding it makes it even harder. My question is this: In a technical discussion, if one believes cognitive bias is a dominant variable, then how would one go about discovering that influence? If cognitive bias is a good thing (which I believe it is), then why the aversion to exploring it? Why do audiophiles see it as a failure when they can't they hear a difference in an ABX test? That doesn't mean they don't hear it outside of the test... Btw, the specific behaviors of capacitors makes them better suited for different applications. This idea that there is a best dielectric is incredibly shortsighted once you factor in the intricacies of different circuits. Also, many of these sciencey factors are being taken way outta context. What I'm not trying to say here is that you can't alter the sound differently with different caps. I just think it could be understood better, but we gotta get away from all the confrontation surrounding real critical listening techniques. And there's a lot more to listening than just strict ABX... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Good stuff, Doc. The nuances in a system/acoustic space take a LONG time to imprint. Do I really hear a chair that's been moved somewhere in my music room? Yes, I firmly believe I do, that that in a blind test I also doubt I'd note when it was removed...does that mean it was purely psychological? Or does that mean that the eye provided information the brain used to decode something in the sound very subtle? DOES IT MATTER? IMHO, no. Whatever a person hears in their system is their reality. Would that chair show up in scientific measurements? Probably not at our current technological abilities, and even if it did we might not recognize it. But the human brain has powers and abilities we don't understand. That is why I do not judge the claims of others as to what they hear. I accept the known science that doesn't indicate that one power cord is better than another...but I will not judge another who believes they hear a difference as that is just as scientifically absurd as using science to say they are wrong. Science is not only not complete yet it's barely started. State your personal beliefs, yes, as passionately as you wish. But don't judge others by them as that way lies a far worse delusion than that of hearing differences not supported by available research. Dave Edited October 5, 2015 by Mallette 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Klipsch Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 What would PWK think about all of this? Designing circuits to closer tolerances is always better. After being in the Air Force working with Mil-Spec parts in a Pmel lab, sometimes you have to use a 5% resistor instead of a 1%. Remember the resistor code, Bad boys , etc. don't want to offend anyone these days. lol Same with old Simpson 260 meters, some had mirrored faces for greater accuracy and some would not. How close do you need to see 5v or 12v. Of course digital gives a more accurate presentation but I just love the old d'arsenal movements. To each their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 The Bay around $20 bucks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Yes, good post Mike. My "problem" with DBT is that we have too many gross examples of its utter failure, but hey, if someone else wants to use it than that's certainly fine by me. Because of DBT, there are people that believe that "all well functioning amplifiers sound the same", and why not, because under these "controlled conditions" they do! Doesn't this bother anyone, or does everyone really believe that amplifiers sound the same? On my Facebook page, somewhere, is a place where Al set up a rather elaborate test to see if there was any audible difference between capacitors. At the end of whatever it was he had set up, were his head phones. I was tired of the plots, and I was like, "hey, there has to be a way to figure out what all of these people are hearing." The end result was that he couldn't hear a difference, though Al's wife thought she could. I went back downstairs later that same day and listened to some music with the AAs that were running Daytons, and after few songs, I put in my AAs with the Jupiters. I'm telling you, something happens that we don't understand when a handful of these things are put on a piece of would and have musical signals pumped through them. DBT has most things sounding alike. The ear/brain mechanism has most things sounding different -- and everyone gets to pick the system they trust. Edited October 5, 2015 by Deang 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I am willing to try the Jupiters but there is no way I am keeping them, too rich for my blood. But I am curious. I would go as far as to purchase them if the seller is willing to refund me after say 60 days upon return. I have a very good ear and have built lots of guitar and hi-fi amps. I would like to believe I can for the most part hear the difference between different dielectrics. I can't find any specifications on the Jupiter website. Do they have any datasheets available? I can't seem to find them. Anyone measure ESR or DA for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Same with old Simpson 260 meters, some had mirrored faces for greater accuracy and some would not. How close do you need to see 5v or 12v. Of course digital gives a more accurate presentation but I just love the old d'arsenal movements. To each their own. No digital meter will ever replace these. They sound better, too. Dave Edited October 5, 2015 by Mallette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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