Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Well, the Flat Stacks are no longer available, and we are waiting for the axial wound replacements. I was told that they were too expensive to make. Bob Crites measured the ESR on them, and said the numbers were very respectable. "Spec Sheet", what's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I like Bob. He recommonded me the Sonicaps years ago over the phone. I will peruse his website looking for some data on the Jupiters, thanks. "Spec Sheet", what's that? Most manufacturers have datasheets for their products; e.g. http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/440/WIMA_MKP_10-3387.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 I cant believe we are still going against the grain of better caps here. We have some of the most sensitive and revealing speakers that money can buy. They are more susceptible to crappy sounding high gain amps with equally bad noise floors....... you just cant hide anything from them. We all complain about highly compressed music content that is the norm now. Everyone here knows that crap in equals crap out and we are all fighting it. I really think there are many folks that haven't taken steps to their listening room or area to achieve a room corrected atmosphere that is worthy to actually hear any change in anything in their system other than speed of reverb and echo. And the few thinking Audyssey will save the day and fix It is the biggest problem right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Lol, I was joking about the spec sheet. Some deliberately hold them back from the public and only give them out to the companies who plan to use them in their commercial products. They also want to protect the information from those who aren't qualified to interpret the data correctly. For example; Klipsch does the same thing with a lot of their data -- you can't get things like raw plots or even schematics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Lol, I was joking about the spec sheet. Some deliberately hold them back from the public and only give them out to the companies who plan to use them in their commercial products. They also want to protect the information from those who aren't qualified to interpret the data correctly. For example; Klipsch does the same thing with a lot of their data -- you can't get things like raw plots or even schematics. Oh hahaha! I kind of scratched my head a little bit there. I can completely agree if a company wants to not disclose a circuit or speaker design but passive and active component datasheets are extremely important for proper application. Especially for critical equipment like medical devices. I always figured if a company put out a superior product they would be happy to boast the info in the datasheet along with application guides. A company that witholds data looks like they have something to hide or haven't properly tested their product. Edited October 5, 2015 by thesloth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Oil and wax capacitors don't measure as well in some areas as axial wound dry polypropylenes. To the uninitiated, the conclusion might be that the product is inferior and not fit for use. These parts are designed for audio applications only, usually for networks and tube amps -- where I believe the only thing that matters is that they can handle the given voltage requirements. Am I wrong about this? I wonder if I could get a data sheet, since I use so many of these things. I will call Chris tomorrow and try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 where I believe the only thing that matters is that they can handle the given voltage requirements. Am I wrong about this? That really depends on where it is in the circuit. I wonder if I could get a data sheet, since I use so many of these things. I will call Chris tomorrow and try. That would be great! I am curious about the dissipation factor. They look huge so maybe this is where these caps pull ahead from the competition. If Bob said the ESR is low then if the leakage is also low then the DF could be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 A company that witholds data looks like they have something to hide or haven't properly tested their product. Or possibly don't want to be copied. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 ESR relates directly to DF. You can't have low ESR and poor DF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 So my 0.02 on a subject I know nothing about. I just purchased crossovers for my forte II, and had also done my KG 4.2's. And I norticed a very large difference in SQ on both sets. 1 set is very nice, and the other is slightly bright to my liking. How is that if caps don't make a real difference? Different people have commented that the crossovers take awhile to break in,and that the SQ will change, but the builder told me different. If caps are built with different components, wouldn't they sound different when compared to each other? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 5, 2015 Author Share Posted October 5, 2015 Almost 1800 views in 48 hours. Think anyone might me interested in this topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 You can't have low ESR and poor DF. True, I found the equation. DF=esr/Xc Thanks Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Almost 1800 views in 48 hours. Think anyone might me interested in this topic? In reality, the number of views doesn't mean a whole lot. If you could see the specs for unique visitors, that might tell you something. And, probably most of the views were to check to see if the forum was on fire from the earlier ridiculous drivel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thesloth Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 Or possibly don't want to be copied. People cloning would be more interested in manufacturing procedure and materials. The info found in the datsheets helps you use the product for the correct application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 I have posted this link in the past because it contains a great deal of very useful information. It makes a good read for anyone interested in this debate: http://sound.westhost.com/articles/capacitors.htm Maynard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) Smart guy, I like him, but I don't have to agree with him on everything to appreciate him. His section(s) on biamping/active filtering is especially good. He's not big on passive filtering, which makes me wonder if he has pro background, since virtually none of those guys like passive filtering all that much. Once upon a time, a room full of us got to hear a pair of Jubilees with active filtering and time alignment. The ancillary gear was first rate - well, everything except Roy's old Walmart CD player. And then there was Marion's passives with wall to wall Mundorfs and Litz inductors (high pass). Roy was awesome, so extremely open minded and open to criticism as well. He was willing to try anything, and that's how the JubScala was born. The 402 on top of the MWM saw action that day (or maybe it was another day), and a few began to see the Jubilee more like something that might work good for the desktop. The room was pretty much evenly split between which solution sounded best. I WANTED the active set up to sound better, because after buying everything, I didn't have the kind of money it would take to build the passives I wanted. Even building with Auricaps, it was just more than I could handle. The active set up sounded "steely", like that really high pitched sound you get when you run your finger around the top of a wineglass. I thought it was very noticeable. I look around the room at all of the goofy smiles, and just didn't get it. Bob was close, but the music was way too loud to talk, and it was so loud that it was hurting my ears. Bob looked uncomfortable too, so maybe I need to repent in dust and ashes about some of things I've been saying about his hearing. Then I started looking for Marion. He was behind me, off to the left, with his very nice, exceptionally significant other (I don't remember her name, but she was very nice). She noticed that I was looking at her, and I felt a little awkward, but we made eye contact, and began transmitting information: WT ... Yeah, I know, it's shredding my ears. Do you think something is hooked up wrong? No, look at how happy everyone is. Yes, they're time aligned with the Jubilees. I'm not sure how that works, but I do know we get to go to Whataburger soon. In retrospect, It was just too damn loud, and as the wiener of the group, I should have said something. The steely and somewhat grainy presentation was hard to miss, and Mike (Doc) noticed it too, and said it could be fixed by modifying the EV unit. I dropped out of the picture shortly after that -- the whole almost dying thing kind of took priority-- so I don't know if Mike ever figured out a way to correct the issue with the gain structure. This is a serious problem, because consumer and commercial equipment does not play nice together. Marion did see me looking at his wife and the signaling with the eyes. I signaled to Marion that I would only hug his wife if he let me, in celebration of the bad sounds going away. When the passives went into the system and fired up, the improvement was nothing short of amazing. Later it was discovered that a part of the low pass was wired incorrectly. Even with this mistake, it STILL sounded better. It had all of the things that everyone is tired of hearing me talk about. The sound was smoother: This means you aren't wincing, scrunching your eyes, shoulders, or crying. The sound was relaxed: you're kicked back, and the sound is "flowing" out of the loudspeaker. -- not like the music is being squeezed, or forced out of the horn. This is rightfully the domain of Dave, a horn upgrade. However, a new network gets you some of the way there, and you need the network anyways. The sound was ?: I don't know what this is called right now. The instruments are separated out a little and the sound isn't homogenized -- with eveything running over on top of each other. I thought both were transparent and open, I just thought the passive setup was more enjoyable to listen to. This is going to sound very cliché, but it's closer to the truth I think. The active setup just sounded mechanical -- more like it was reproducing music, while the passive set up really did sound more like I was just listening to music. Normally I would say that that I was thinking less about the system, but that would be a lie. One of the coolest observations made about that day was by Mike Benz (Dr. who). Mike surmised that many of the younger folk, and those who are constantly messing around with DACS, Music Servers, Streaming, and the like -- have gotten used to the distortion signatures of the digital age, while us older folk find the sound insufferable, and are still building systems based on what we grew up with and are used to -- we can barely handle a CD player without puking. One of the early responses was by Jay, who may or may not still be a Klipsch employee -- Jay said the best way to eliminate all of the variables found in capacitors is to make the loudspeaker fully active. They sell some pretty nice.ones at partsexpress, and though I don't think they're for me -- I wouldn't mind taking a nice set home and playing with them. I'm pretty sure that this is where the future is going. Edited October 6, 2015 by Deang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Reading over this, it occurred to me that I might have my Jubilee invites mixed up - I'm not sure if Doc was at that first one or not. I think Mike noticed what I had heard at an invite I wasn't present at, and shared this on the Jubilee Section of the Forum. Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 and now for something completely the same. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Or possibly don't want to be copied. People cloning would be more interested in manufacturing procedure and materials. The info found in the datsheets helps you use the product for the correct application. Yeah, like a thieving company from China. Smart guy, I like him, but I don't have to agree with him on everything to appreciate him. His section(s) on biamping/active filtering is especially good. He's not big on passive filtering, which makes me wonder if he has pro background, since virtually none of those guys like passive filtering all that much. Once upon a time, a room full of us got to hear a pair of Jubilees with active filtering and time alignment. The ancillary gear was first rate - well, everything except Roy's old Walmart CD player. And then there was Marion's passives with wall to wall Mundorfs and Litz inductors (high pass). Roy was awesome, so extremely open minded and open to criticism as well. He was willing to try anything, and that's how the JubScala was born. The 402 on top of the MWM saw action that day (or maybe it was another day), and a few began to see the Jubilee more fit for the desktop. The room was pretty much evenly split between which solution sounded best. I WANTED the active set up to sound better, because after buying everything, I didn't have the kind of money it would take to build the passives I wanted. Even building with Auricaps, it was just more than I could handle. The active set up sounded "steely", like that really high pitched sound you get when you run your finger around the top of a wineglass. I thought it was very noticeable. I look around the room at all of the goofy smiles, and just didn't get it. Bob was close, but the music was way too loud to talk, and it was so loud that it was hurting my ears. Bob looked uncomfortable too, so maybe I need to repent in dust and ashes about some of things I've been saying about his hearing. Then I started looking for Marion. He was behind me, off to the left, with his very nice, exceptionally significant other (I don't remember her name, but she was very nice). She noticed that I was looking at her, and I felt a little awkward, but we made eye contact, and began transmitting information: WT ... Yeah, I know, it's shredding my ears. Do you think something is hooked up wrong? No, look at how happy everyone is. They're time aligned with Jubilees. I'm not sure how that works, but I do know we get to go to Whataburger soon. In retrospect, It was just too damn loud, and as the wiener of the group, I should have said something. The steely and somewhat grainy presentation was hard to miss, and Mike (Doc) noticed it too, and said it could be fixed by modifying the EV unit. I dropped out of the picture shortly after that -- the whole almost dying thing kind of took priority-- so I don't know if Mike ever figured out a way to correct the issue with the gain structure. This is a serious problem, because you have to consumer and commercial equipment does not play nice together. Marion did see me looking at his wife and the signaling with the eyes. I signaled to Marion that I would only hug his wife if he let me, in celebration of the bad sounds going away. When the passives went into the system and fired up, the improvement was nothing short of amazing. Later it was discovered that a part of the low pass was wired incorrectly. Even with this mistake, it STILL sounded better. It had all of the things that everyone is tired of hearing me talk about. The sound was smoother: This means you aren't wincing, scrunching your eyes or shoulders, or crying. The sound was relaxed: you're kicked back, and the sound is "flowing" out of the loudspeaker. -- not like the music is being squeezed, or forced out of the horn. This is rightfully the domain of Dave, a horn upgrade. However, a new network gets you some of the way there, and you need the network anyways. The sound was ?: I don't know what this is called right now. The instruments are separated out a little and the sound isn't homogenized -- with eveything running over on top of each other. I thought both were transparent and open, I just thought the passive setup was more enjoyable to listen to. This is going to sound very cliché, but it's closer to the truth I think. The active setup just sounded mechanical -- more like it was reproducing music, while the passive set up really did sound more like I was just listening to music. Normally I would say that that I was thinking less about the system, but that would be a lie. One of the coolest observations made about that day was by Mike Benz (Dr. who). Mike surmised that many of the younger folk, and those used to constantly messing around with DACS, Music Servers, Streaming, and the like -- have gotten used to the distortion signatures of the digital age, while us old guys l find the sound insufferable, and are still building systems based on what we grew up getting used today and enjoying. One of the early responses was by Jay, who may or may not still be a Klipsch employee -- Jay said the best way to eliminate all of the variables found in capacitors is to make the loudspeaker fully active. They sell some pretty nice.ones at partsexpress, and though I don't think they're for me -- I wouldn't mind taking a nice set home and playing with them. I'm pretty sure that this is where the future is going. That is a classy, humorous, witty little breakdown of a story Dean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 Why thank you Jay. (-: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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