reccomend a SET for my CF3's

[sheltie dave]

When you search for a SET amp, you need to figure out what tubes can drive your CF3s to adequate levels in your room. I would say the 300Bs and 211 based would be the only amps in my stable that would be happy doing that, and they both start north of $2k used. The Opera Consonance 211s can do it well, but they are beasts.

[moray james]

EL34 does 12 watts in SET.  There are not many tubes which are better balanced and as easy to find on the market. It all depends upon expectations as to how much is enough.

   Don't poo poo quality larger SS amps especially when vertically bi amped if you have not tried them, they do deliver performance characteristics you simply won't get with very small amps. Just so you know I own a 2A3 SET amp as well as larger SS amps so I can say that I have experienced both ends of the spectrum (I can find qualities I like with both). One set up that I especially liked was a set of RF3 with SET EL34 but the amp was a very expensive one which cost about $12,000.00 in CND funds. Made me re think Klipsch at the time and got me more than interested.

   There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect  AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

[Jim]

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

 

This is the reason I went with 3 separate amps, this way, I can control what I want when I want. I toyed with getting a Scotts, until I heard what a SET can do, what a SEP can do, and what a PP Integrated can do. And none of my amps ran more than $500.00.

 

I know there's much much better out there, but for where I'm at in the game, they keep me happy. If you can find a cheap Chinese Class A SET, you can get them wired already in triode mode and pushing 4 WPC. It will give you that nice 3D imaging, then all you need to do is "upgrade" the caps and resistors if anything. I had my SET upgraded for less than $175.00.

 

I know you are going the other way due to your room size, but if you wanted something for critical listening, here's an idea.

 

Try looking at one that puts out slightly more power and only has one input.

[ToolShedAmps]

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though.

 

Amplifiers are like hamburgers......MOST are "OK", some are truly awful, and a few are Exceptional. Understand that NONE of the exceptional amplifiers use transformers or chokes that may have been a Westinghouse Deep-Freezer or Toyota Corolla in a past life.....the same holds true for circuit topologies themselves. Not all Push-Pull, Single-Ended, Class "D" Switching (Digital), or Solid-State amplifiers sound the same either. Part of the fun, also part of the madness.....

 

Additionally, most designers would agree that the tubes themselves only account for 10% (at MOST) of what you hear. Everything in the signal path sounds like "something". The key (or MAGIC) is determining what to hear. Some topologies innately do this better than others. Some methodologies within a topology maximize these differences. However, ultimately these choices do not come without compromises. The compromises manifest themselves in one of two ways; either lower sound quality or, higher cost...one of these outcomes IS selected by the designer.

 

IMHO......

 

TS Matt. 

[moray james]

 

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

 

This is the reason I went with 3 separate amps, this way, I can control what I want when I want. I toyed with getting a Scotts, until I heard what a SET can do, what a SEP can do, and what a PP Integrated can do. And none of my amps ran more than $500.00.

 

I know there's much much better out there, but for where I'm at in the game, they keep me happy. If you can find a cheap Chinese Class A SET, you can get them wired already in triode mode and pushing 4 WPC. It will give you that nice 3D imaging, then all you need to do is "upgrade" the caps and resistors if anything. I had my SET upgraded for less than $175.00.

 

I know you are going the other way due to your room size, but if you wanted something for critical listening, here's an idea.

 

Try looking at one that puts out slightly more power and only has one input.

 

Ok this is simply a comment which I think is worth making. I am not saying that you cannot use two or three amplifiers. I am saying to those who might be interested in trying that there is a reason that I usually recommend vertical biamping and that is amplifier gain. If I use two identical stereo block amplifiers all four channels will have identical gain. This is important. There are other benefits to vertical bi amping but I don't want to go there. Making sure that the gain is matched for all channels is important and it is very often overlooked and so it polarity. Every time you add a stage in an amp the polarity at the output changes so you need to keep that in mind. Have fun and enjoy.

 

   Oh and please don't confuse or be confused by knobs on amplifiers which are often labeled as "gain" they are not gain controls they are volume pots and they do not control gain they control volume. You cannot adjust amplifier gain with a knob on the front of an amplifier. Ok carry on.

[rbtwsp]

 

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

 

This is the reason I went with 3 separate amps, this way, I can control what I want when I want. I toyed with getting a Scotts, until I heard what a SET can do, what a SEP can do, and what a PP Integrated can do. And none of my amps ran more than $500.00.

 

I know there's much much better out there, but for where I'm at in the game, they keep me happy. If you can find a cheap Chinese Class A SET, you can get them wired already in triode mode and pushing 4 WPC. It will give you that nice 3D imaging, then all you need to do is "upgrade" the caps and resistors if anything. I had my SET upgraded for less than $175.00.

 

I know you are going the other way due to your room size, but if you wanted something for critical listening, here's an idea.

 

Try looking at one that puts out slightly more power and only has one input.

 

Jim,

   Your comment about one input is what I may try to, I have have one source my CDP and do not plan on any others. The other interest would be integrated for simplicicty

[Jim]

 

 

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

 

This is the reason I went with 3 separate amps, this way, I can control what I want when I want. I toyed with getting a Scotts, until I heard what a SET can do, what a SEP can do, and what a PP Integrated can do. And none of my amps ran more than $500.00.

 

I know there's much much better out there, but for where I'm at in the game, they keep me happy. If you can find a cheap Chinese Class A SET, you can get them wired already in triode mode and pushing 4 WPC. It will give you that nice 3D imaging, then all you need to do is "upgrade" the caps and resistors if anything. I had my SET upgraded for less than $175.00.

 

I know you are going the other way due to your room size, but if you wanted something for critical listening, here's an idea.

 

Try looking at one that puts out slightly more power and only has one input.

 

Ok this is simply a comment which I think is worth making. I am not saying that you cannot use two or three amplifiers. I am saying to those who might be interested in trying that there is a reason that I usually recommend vertical biamping and that is amplifier gain. If I use two identical stereo block amplifiers all four channels will have identical gain. This is important. There are other benefits to vertical bi amping but I don't want to go there. Making sure that the gain is matched for all channels is important and it is very often overlooked and so it polarity. Every time you add a stage in an amp the polarity at the output changes so you need to keep that in mind. Have fun and enjoy.

 

   Oh and please don't confuse or be confused by knobs on amplifiers which are often labeled as "gain" they are not gain controls they are volume pots and they do not control gain they control volume. You cannot adjust amplifier gain with a knob on the front of an amplifier. Ok carry on.

 

 

Moray, I don't know if you misunderstood my comment. If you did, I have the 3 amps, but don't run them at the same time.Each amp is used for what I feel like at that time.

 

I do however want to get external crossovers and then take 3 amps and run them that way,and maybe a 4th amp for a horn loaded sub.

[Fjd]

 

 

 

There are so many bad amplifiers and even more painfully ordinary amps out there it complicates matters when it comes to trying to make recommendations. It is pretty easy to tell when you hear a special amp though. Don't expect AVR's to sound much better than ordinary though it's not what they are about. The same holds for most receivers.

 

This is the reason I went with 3 separate amps, this way, I can control what I want when I want. I toyed with getting a Scotts, until I heard what a SET can do, what a SEP can do, and what a PP Integrated can do. And none of my amps ran more than $500.00.

 

I know there's much much better out there, but for where I'm at in the game, they keep me happy. If you can find a cheap Chinese Class A SET, you can get them wired already in triode mode and pushing 4 WPC. It will give you that nice 3D imaging, then all you need to do is "upgrade" the caps and resistors if anything. I had my SET upgraded for less than $175.00.

 

I know you are going the other way due to your room size, but if you wanted something for critical listening, here's an idea.

 

Try looking at one that puts out slightly more power and only has one input.

 

Ok this is simply a comment which I think is worth making. I am not saying that you cannot use two or three amplifiers. I am saying to those who might be interested in trying that there is a reason that I usually recommend vertical biamping and that is amplifier gain. If I use two identical stereo block amplifiers all four channels will have identical gain. This is important. There are other benefits to vertical bi amping but I don't want to go there. Making sure that the gain is matched for all channels is important and it is very often overlooked and so it polarity. Every time you add a stage in an amp the polarity at the output changes so you need to keep that in mind. Have fun and enjoy.

 

   Oh and please don't confuse or be confused by knobs on amplifiers which are often labeled as "gain" they are not gain controls they are volume pots and they do not control gain they control volume. You cannot adjust amplifier gain with a knob on the front of an amplifier. Ok carry on.

 

 

Moray, I don't know if you misunderstood my comment. If you did, I have the 3 amps, but don't run them at the same time.Each amp is used for what I feel like at that time.

 

I do however want to get external crossovers and then take 3 amps and run them that way,and maybe a 4th amp for a horn loaded sub.

 

 

 

That's how I use my amplifiers when I'm using the passive crossover and one amplifier with the speakers.  The hot-sexy-sounding girl with acoustic guitar is played through one of my low power SET amplifiers.  When something like Prodigy comes up for a spin on the transport, I'm looking for a different listening experience and they will most likely get my high current solid state class-A Pass Labs amplifier.

 

If you decide to bi-amp or tri-amp and are not using amplifiers with the same gain structure, look for a DSP that has functionality to adjust the gain before the amplifier.  Preamplifiers can entail different issues depending upon how they are designed; however, for purposes of a DSP connected to an amplifier, I believe that an easy way to think of "gain" is to think of controls before the amplifier circuit to get the desired signal voltage for the input into the amplifier.  When looking at controls on the output side of an amplifier circuit, then I think of "volume" controls that are often attenuating the full output signal rather than amplifying the signal.

 

Since we like to think about audio in terms of dB, here is the math for the power ratio to dB conversion:

 

The gain G_dB is equal to 10 times base 10 logarithm of the ratio of the power P₂ and the reference power P₁.

G_dB = 10 log₁₀(P₂ / P₁)

 

P₂ is the power level.

P₁ is the referenced power level.

G_dB is the power ratio or gain in dB.

 

 

Here is a current thread where Tromprof's active DSP crossover implementation is discussed.  Rudy81 has a couple of threads from a few years ago on his DSP implementations.

 

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/162444-active-crossovers-implementation/

Edited March 8, 2016 by Fjd

[Fjd]

 

 

 

I do however want to get external crossovers and then take 3 amps and run them that way,and maybe a 4th amp for a horn loaded sub.

 

 

 

If you decide to bi-amp or tri-amp and are not using amplifiers with the same gain structure, look for a DSP that has functionality to adjust the gain before the amplifier.  Preamplifiers can entail different issues depending upon how they are designed; however, for purposes of a DSP connected to an amplifier, I believe that an easy way to think of "gain" is to think of controls before the amplifier circuit to get the desired signal voltage for the input into the amplifier.  When looking at controls on the output side of an amplifier circuit, then I think of "volume" controls that are often attenuating the full output signal rather than amplifying the signal.

 

Since we like to think about audio in terms of dB, here is the math for the power ratio to dB conversion:

 

The gain G_dB is equal to 10 times base 10 logarithm of the ratio of the power P₂ and the reference power P₁.

G_dB = 10 log₁₀(P₂ / P₁)

 

P₂ is the power level.

P₁ is the referenced power level.

G_dB is the power ratio or gain in dB.

 

 

 

 

This may be an easier way to think about the formula above.

 

Gain = 10 x log (Power out/Power in)

 

Various amplifiers may have different gain structures built into the circuit.  For example, some amplifiers may have a spec of 15 dB gain while others may have 20 dB or even 26 dB of gain (one of my amplifiers has zero dB of voltage gain).  It’s all about the “voltage,” in that with an amplifier you have input voltage versus output voltage that will essentially reflect a gain change as the voltage travels through the amplifier.  

 

The same voltage input from the source component gear into each of these amplifiers will result in different levels of output voltage due to the differences in the gain structure of each amplifier.  With level controls on the input side of the amplifier you are not actually changing the actual “gain” inherent in the amplifier circuit; and not attenuating the amplified "noise" (to me, the math seems to show that it may be more advantageous to have most gain up front and the least gain at the end of the gear chain in order to maximize the S/N of the system) introduced along with the music signal as you would be with level controls at the output of the amplifier. 

 

This is oversimplified since we haven't even talked about impedance; however, probably a better way of thinking about it is that you are reducing the voltage output from the preamp, CD player or DSP connected to the input of the “higher gain” amplifier with a "voltage divider" and in that respect you have lowered the gain of the amplifier as it “appears” in the system to match the “lower gain” amplifier used in the bi-amp setup.  

 

Essentially, another way to think about it is that you will be setting the output voltages of all amplifiers to the same ratio by individually adjusting the input voltage levels of each amplifier. 

 

Here is a link to a calculator that may help demonstrate the equation above.

 

http://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators#db_volts

 

Here is a link with an overview of voltage dividers and a few more equations.

 

http://sound.westhost.com/vda.htm

 

 

Edit: On a side note, some people tend to forget about "level matching" or "gain matching" when comparing amplifiers, let alone the "gain matching" that I am attempting to describe above for a bi-amp setup.  Even very slight differences in gain between amplifiers can be audible as I have found that precise level matching can be more critical than most even realize.  In certain situations a 1 dB difference can change a person's perception of an amplifier.  For example, in certain listening rooms that tend to allow a speaker to "bloom" with reflective surfaces and very little absorption, a person could fairly easily detect a 1 dB difference in output level between amplifiers. 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Fjd

[ToolShedAmps]

Edit: On a side note, some people tend to forget about "level matching" or "gain matching" when comparing amplifiers, let alone the "gain matching" that I am attempting to describe above for a bi-amp setup.  Even very slight differences in gain between amplifiers can be audible as I have found that precise level matching can be more critical than most even realize.  In certain situations a 1 dB difference can change a person's perception of an amplifier.  For example, in certain listening rooms that tend to allow a speaker to "bloom" with reflective surfaces and very little absorption, a person could fairly easily detect a 1 dB difference in output level between amplifiers.

 

 

Some may find this interesting, years ago when I was a Wilson Audio dealer, I was required (prior to being INVITED to become a dealer) to spend a week out in Utah at the Wilson Audio factory to undergo training to PROPERLY set up Wilson Audio speakers. Long days were spent with graphing calculator, tape measure and masking tape in hand. Day four concluded with a fairly intensive "EXAM" which we were required to pass. Friday morning (day 5) we were met in the training room by David Wilson himself. We were then told to leave the calculators, tape, and measuring instruments on the desks, grab a cup of coffee and have a seat. One-by-one, the 12 of us (prospective dealers) were led down the hall into Davids' private listening room where we found a pair of Watts and Puppies disassembled on the floor. David told me to "set up the system, and tune it by-ear". The THREE of us who could (out of 12) became dealers that day. David Wilson's point was this..........there is no finer measuring instrument than the human ear...

 

TS Matt.

[Fjd]

 

Edit: On a side note, some people tend to forget about "level matching" or "gain matching" when comparing amplifiers, let alone the "gain matching" that I am attempting to describe above for a bi-amp setup.  Even very slight differences in gain between amplifiers can be audible as I have found that precise level matching can be more critical than most even realize.  In certain situations a 1 dB difference can change a person's perception of an amplifier.  For example, in certain listening rooms that tend to allow a speaker to "bloom" with reflective surfaces and very little absorption, a person could fairly easily detect a 1 dB difference in output level between amplifiers.

 

 

Some may find this interesting, years ago when I was a Wilson Audio dealer, I was required (prior to being INVITED to become a dealer) to spend a week out in Utah at the Wilson Audio factory to undergo training to PROPERLY set up Wilson Audio speakers. Long days were spent with graphing calculator, tape measure and masking tape in hand. Day four concluded with a fairly intensive "EXAM" which we were required to pass. Friday morning (day 5) we were met in the training room by David Wilson himself. We were then told to leave the calculators, tape, and measuring instruments on the desks, grab a cup of coffee and have a seat. One-by-one, the 12 of us (prospective dealers) were led down the hall into Davids' private listening room where we found a pair of Watts and Puppies disassembled on the floor. David told me to "set up the system, and tune it by-ear". The THREE of us who could (out of 12) became dealers that day. David Wilson's point was this..........there is no finer measuring instrument than the human ear...

 

TS Matt.

 

 

 

 

I do find it interesting and I believe that aspect you outline about the ear is exactly part of my point I was getting at, in that the ear (even an “untrained” ear) can detect very small differences that seem very inconsequential on the surface; and I certainly cannot find fault with those that just use their ears and go with what provides the listening experience they are looking for. 

 

Another aspect of my point regarding gain matching is that although the ear can detect very small differences, the brain may not exactly know what aspect of the music reproduction chain to attribute the difference.  In general, when gain levels are different, it seems that many will tend to conclude that louder music, even if it's just slightly louder, will almost always sounds better to them than the quieter music. 

 

While more from the loudspeaker standpoint rather than amplifiers, I’ve found the following book and studies by Dr. Floyd E. Toole and Sean E. Olive very interesting. 

 

Dr. Floyd E. Toole, Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, Focal Press (2008).

 

Dr. Floyd E. Toole and Sean E. Olive, “Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing: Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests and Other Interesting Things”, 97th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., preprint no. 3894 (1994 Nov.).

 

Sean E. Olive, “Differences in Performance and Preference of Trained versus Untrained Listeners in Loudspeaker Tests: A Case Study”, J. Audio Eng. Soc., Vol. 51, no. 9, pp. 806-825, (2003 Sept.).

 

Sean E. Olive, “Some New Evidence that Teenagers and College Students May Prefer Accurate Sound Reproduction”, 132nd Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., preprint no. 8683, (2012, April).

 

Over a 10 year period trained listeners evaluated hundreds of loudspeakers in double-blind studies so that the listeners had no knowledge of the brand, price or visual appearance of the products being tested.  A consistent finding of these tests was that the “trained” listeners generally agreed on which loudspeakers they preferred.  The ear was able to consistently discern or differentiate good sound from poor sound.

 

Then during 2004 a much more elaborate double-blind study was performed that involved over 300 “untrained” listeners and the results were compared to the preferences of trained listeners.  A consistent finding of these tests was that the loudspeaker preferences were essentially the same for both listening groups, except the trained listeners tended to give lower, more discriminating, and consistent ratings.  There again, the ear was able to consistently discern or differentiate good sound from poor sound.

 

During the latest study, high school and college students in the Los Angeles area were tested to see if their sound quality tastes had become corrupted through prolonged listening to low-quality MP3 devices, as many tend to anecdotally perceive.  In general, the finding of these tests was that the students preferred CD-quality music files to the lower-quality MP3 versions in 70% of the tests.  The logical conclusion being that students can hear fine and prefer quality sound.  There again, the ear was able to consistently discern or differentiate good sound from poor sound.

 

Now for those that may decide to go the measurement route and do some gain matching for your bi-amp set up when amplifiers with different gain structures are used or just gain match for amplifier comparision, I would recommend using a volt meter that will measure down to 0.001 volt AC if possible.

 

I believe that while playing the relevant test tones, the best place to measure is at the output of the power amp, while I’m sure that others can make an argument that measurements should be made at the speaker terminals.  Although, probably the more important aspect would be to measure at exact same point for each amplifier, whether that point is at the power amp output or the speaker terminal.  

 

When you measure at the amplifier, in most instances you will find it to be slightly more voltage as the speaker wire resistance is not part of the measurement.  Now if you decide to measure the voltage at the speaker connections, in most cases you will find it to be slightly less voltage as compared to the measurement at amplifier connections due to a certain amount of voltage drop across the speaker wire.  

 

Of course, you can always measure at both points which will allow you to understand the voltage drop for each speaker wire or channel.

 

Now with the test tones playing over the two signal paths, I would shoot for a level match within about 1% or a level match of about 0.1 dB difference.

 

Although, given what I suspect to be the perceived difficulty of the above, I cannot necessarily find fault with those that just use their ears and forego the measurements, go with what provides the listening experience they are looking for, and attribute the difference to whatever the brain tells them too.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Fjd

[NOSValves]

but scare tactics to promote flea power....good grief!

Really "NOS" ??? - SMH

Absolutely...

[tube fanatic]

Sorry- posted this in the wrong thread!  I need some sleep................

 

Maynard

Edited March 11, 2016 by tube fanatic

[mike stehr]

EL34 does 12 watts in SET.

 

According to the tube data for 6CA7, (Amperex?) Class A one tube connected in beam/pentode will give 8-11 watts with around 10% distortion.

 

Class A connected in triode with a B+ of 375 volts, the data claims 6 watts with around 8% distortion.

 

Nonetheless, 6 watts in triode is pretty good number...up there with 300B. I have a couple old Mullard and Amperex EL34 pilfered from my Altec 345A amplifier, I've been wanting to try them in a single-ended circuit one of these days...