babadono Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 17 hours ago, babadono said: What bi wiring does is move the connection between the low and high (or mid/high if 3 way) from the crossover back to the output of your amp/receiver. Can you hear this? I have never tried it because I don't think I could. Hear a difference I mean. Hope posting this again might make it sink in. BTW, A passive crossover is NOT a filter? Whaddaya talkin about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtr20 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 Someone brought it up awhile ago on the forum which I thought was a cool idea, but I don't think anyone had tried it. Bi-amp with a solid state on the LF and tube on the HF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich_Guy Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 10 hours ago, wvu80 said: My subjective listening tests suggest there is a difference in the detail of the mid-range, but VERY slight, very subtle. This is my find as well, it is slight enough that most wouldn't notice but if you like to go that little extra to get the very best sound it maybe worth considering. I make my own speaker cables using Mogami W2921 4-Conductor 13GA Speaker Cable and I am extremely happy with the result. Here's a pic of one of the speaker cables I made before the GLS locking bananas were added. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samhain1969 Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 The "scientific" portion, will come from the manufacturer of your speakers/various reviews on the subject with graphs to show differentials between with/without bi-wiring same speakers.... The only issue with this is, some will be biased and of course subjective. Speaking of, as you are surely aware of, sound quality, like others have stated is purely subjective to and decided by the listener as to what is quality sound. I personally use 12-gauge "oxygen-free" speaker wire for my RB-81 II's and have them bi-wired to my AVR. It's not the most audiophile-grade of setups but to me, it does the biz until I upgrade from an AVR to a integrated or amp/pre-amp/tube solution. I can tell a subtle difference on how my RB-81 II's output/breakout the sound (low/mid/high) when bi'd vs. standard wired... Enough so, that I've kept them bi-wired. Budget comes into play obviously, considering on what length/type/brand of wiring you go with, as it can get pricy when bi-wiring... However, there are good quality wiring options available that can cut cost(s) without sacrificing sound-quality and only adds an extra few minutes of installation/connectivity in doing so (bi-wiring). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 12 hours ago, wvu80 said: Minor thread drift: My Onkyo TX-NR717 has a bi-amp option in the on-screen display, so bi-amping is happening electronically before the passive bi-amp of the speaker crossover. What I've never heard explained is exactly WHAT is going on in the AVR. The manual (which I've read several times) does not address the technical aspects of HOW the AVR bi-amps. My subjective listening tests suggest there is a difference in the detail of the mid-range, but VERY slight, very subtle. My Elite SC71 can also bi amp. Basically this is a poor man's bi amping because it still sends the same signal to both amps. So both amps have to amplify the entire frequency range, negating much of the advantage of having separate low and high amps. With all the DSP in these HT receivers shame they cannot add basic low pass and High pass electronic crossovers. Car audio receivers have had them for over a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 13 hours ago, wvu80 said: Minor thread drift: My Onkyo TX-NR717 has a bi-amp option in the on-screen display, so bi-amping is happening electronically before the passive bi-amp of the speaker crossover. What I've never heard explained is exactly WHAT is going on in the AVR. The manual (which I've read several times) does not address the technical aspects of HOW the AVR bi-amps. My subjective listening tests suggest there is a difference in the detail of the mid-range, but VERY slight, very subtle. My Elite SC71 can also bi amp. Basically this is a poor man's bi amping because it still sends the same signal to both amps. So both amps have to amplify the entire frequency range, negating much of the advantage of having separate low and high amps. With all the DSP in these HT receivers shame they cannot add basic low pass and High pass electronic crossovers. Car audio receivers have had them for over a decade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 13 hours ago, wvu80 said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efzauner Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 ugh.. what happened... how can I delete multiple posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivervalleymgb Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 The literature with my B&W 802 Diamonds says to bi-wire. I have tried both and can tell no difference. The 802D have no jumper for a single wire setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 On 9/30/2016 at 11:04 AM, babadono said: Hope posting this again might make it sink in. BTW, A passive crossover is NOT a filter? Whaddaya talkin about? I have to disagree with you on this. HB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 It is common to refer to a electronic XO as filter. A passive XO in the loose term can be called a filter but, it lacks many advantages of it's electronic counterpart. Since it is filtering a signal that has already been amplified, a passive crossover wastes power, releasing the unwanted parts of the amplified signal as heat. Also, speakers actually change their impedances when playing which also changes a passive crossover’s crossover point, or frequency response, leading to inconsistent sound definition, especially around the vocal regions. (This is another advantage to using an active crossover, which is unaffected by speaker impedance.) http://www.crutchfield.com/S-RZIabjtXILY/learn/learningcenter/car/crossovers.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 13 hours ago, Honeybadger said: I have to disagree with you on this. HB OK disagree away. I'm all ears. I love to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 A passive network is definitely "a filter". In fact, there are two filters - a high pass filter and a low pass filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson's Ridge Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 Here is an article from Elliott Sound Products that discusses in some detail the benefits of bi-wiring, and more importantly, bi-amping. The section on bi-wiring discusses how the low-pass filters and high-pass filters work in a typical passive crossover network. I make note of the fact that my P-37F owner's manual recommends that the speakers be 'true' bi-wired (using two separate speaker wires). http://sound.whsites.net/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Dawson's Ridge said: Here is an article from Elliott Sound Products that discusses in some detail the benefits of bi-wiring, and more importantly, bi-amping. The section on bi-wiring discusses how the low-pass filters and high-pass filters work in a typical passive crossover network. I make note of the fact that my P-37F owner's manual recommends that the speakers be 'true' bi-wired (using two separate speaker wires). http://sound.whsites.net/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring The articles support what I mentioned. Bi-wiring by removing the jumpers and fool's Bi-amp is not a major improvement. More time spent on proper setup, room factor, ect will in general have higher yeilds than either of the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 I tried bi-wiring a few times in various situations and could never hear a difference. Bi-amping will provide additional wattage at the very least which is some times helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson's Ridge Posted October 4, 2016 Author Share Posted October 4, 2016 6 hours ago, derrickdj1 said: The articles support what I mentioned. Bi-wiring by removing the jumpers and fool's Bi-amp is not a major improvement. More time spent on proper setup, room factor, ect will in general have higher yeilds than either of the above. Roy Elliott seems to be 'straddleing' the issue. On the one hand he says bi-wiring "prevents interactions between crossover sections". He then goes into great detail to explain the negative affects of these "interactions". Then he does an immediate 'about-face' and declares there is no audible difference. But he closes by saying "I have not used it myself". One has to consider the fact that Elliott is in the business of selling amplifiers to bi-amp, he does not design and sell speakers or speaker wire. Discouraging bi-wiring and promoting bi-amping instead is consistent with his business model. Shunyata's Calen Gabriel has posted (on another forum) a lengthy article about the pros and cons of bi-wiring. He concludes that before someone automatically assumes there is no benefit to bi-wiring, that person needs to check first with his/her speaker manufacturer. That is what I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted October 4, 2016 Share Posted October 4, 2016 22 hours ago, Deang said: A passive network is definitely "a filter". In fact, there are two filters - a high pass filter and a low pass filter. Thanks Dean. Could even be one of them there fancy bandpass filters in there too if its a 3 way crossover. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 my two cents Bi-amping changes the load the amp is seeing. Bi-amping if you have amps up to your eyeballs ( I admit I have a problem), gives you more reserve and headroom for each channel. Bi amping gets you away from any heat concerns you may have with a receiver and allows you to run an entire rack of your fav Amp Class A, AB, B etc...and generate even more heat. Bi wiring, not sure there is an argument for it, or even a good definition, moving the crossover out of the speaker and closer to the amp? If I had the time and the desire, and the room, it would be easy to conduct an experiment and play some tracks to see if there is an audible difference. If you wanted to go all out, you could run an oscilloscope on test signal, or set up monoblocks and run one speaker bi and one standard and compare the signals. Generally speaking, the simplest solution with the least number of parts and complexity...... is the best. A big fat wire of good quality, twisted pairs if you are worried about cross-talk, and good connectors.....done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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