mark1101 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I edited my post because I realized we were saying the same thing. However, I don't get how 8 ohms on one network clips the amp, but not on another that cold present the same impedance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 hours ago, mark1101 said: so if the total load is 8 ohms which is normal for a speaker then the amp can't drive the speaker? So what happens on the Klipsch network when the impedance drops to the normal levels of 8 ohms? Well the amp can drive the speaker but is limited to a certain max SPL once it reaches it's max power output capability due to the resistor (which just produces heat) + producing SPL from driver/horn. Again as you know the amplifier voltage applied to the swamping resistor is just producing heat and doesn't contribute to the SPL of the system it is just sacrificing power from the amplifier to maintain a somewhat constant impedance. The fact is the amplifier will have the capability to drive the midrange to a higher SPL if it's loaded by the higher Klipsch Network Impedance. I'm not sure what the impedance of the AA/Klipschorn woofer section is but lets assume 8 ohms for discussion. If the LF Horn is 104db for 1 watt(ie: 2.83v/8 ohm) at 1 meter then 4 watts (5.66v/ 8 ohm) will produce 110db and assuming the same 12ft listening distance = 99db. The same could be said for the tweeter also. A larger percentage of the amplifier power is used to produce sound except for losses in the network components to the driver and heating the voice coil of the driver. It's important to understand how the amplifier power is being distributed and used in the system because it is either being turned into heat or sound from the driver/horn. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 13 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: ... and to those that want to call this "hair splitting and making something out of nothing" or "Silly" with nothing better to offer ... Using your own math, a 2a3 or 45 SET amp would be clipping as soon as you turn it on. However, we know that these amplifiers are used with success with many other loudspeaker systems, including single driver designs, which also routinely use swamping resistors to smooth their response. Once again, I produced Al's white paper which neither you or Kerry want to address. I realize there is "a cost" in obtaining on the fly attenuation in these designs, I just don't think it's as dire as you're presenting. I can't locate the plot - I've contacted John to help produce it. So you're position is basically this: if you only have a couple of watts, use an earlier Klipsch filter (something I began advocating over a decade ago, but not because of power - but sound). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Let's see if I've got this right - people buy low power single ended amplifiers to minimize components in the signal path that cause distortion then put extra components in the passive crossover which cause more current draw than the low power amplifier can handle, resulting in distortion. This is so they can easily adjust driver levels and not have to buy another capacitor. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Funny. Well. It doesn't quite work out that way. Anyone who wants to experiment with different drivers and horns find these designs attractive - and are using high quality amplifiers with plenty of power. Purists who are using SET amplifiers normally gravitate towards the Type A because of its low part count. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 4 hours ago, Deang said: Anyone who wants to experiment with different drivers and horns find these designs attractive Gonna have a tough time matching CD horn equalization with passives, depending on the relative sensitivities of the drivers and EQ needs of the CD horn under test. Also, the EQ circuits in a passive xover waste power similar to a swamping resistor, no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 1 hour ago, Don Richard said: Gonna have a tough time matching CD horn equalization with passives, depending on the relative sensitivities of the drivers and EQ needs of the CD horn under test. Also, the EQ circuits in a passive xover waste power similar to a swamping resistor, no? A few of us have been doing this for a few years now........in other words using passive networks with an outboard EQ to be able to use the 402 and 510 horns with various drivers. Works great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, mark1101 said: Works great. Except for correcting the delays...that part doesn't work so well for horn-loaded loudspeakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 Agreed. No delays.........but as engaging or even more so without. You'd have to hear it. I have the magical digital system in the same room and each has its features and benefits. Just to keep common with the conversation here.......ALK networks with swamping resistors, and amps with plenty of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBspl Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 9 hours ago, Deang said: Once again, I produced Al's white paper which neither you or Kerry want to address. I'm not exactly sure what white paper you're talking about -- but I'm not inclined to read it because it's a solution I would never consider using. If I needed that kind of control over the loudspeaker, I would prefer to apply it to the front end of the amplifier where I have infinitely more control, and I don't have to worry about compromising the integrity of the passive crossover. Kerry 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 7 hours ago, Don Richard said: then put extra components in the passive crossover One more component... the resistor. I'm sorry you don't live close enough to come visit and listen to my 2A3 amps with my minimalist crossovers... Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, mark1101 said: You'd have to hear it. I have--both ways...in the same room under the same conditions. I like the active crossover sound a lot more. The timbre shift of the passive approach was definitely not what I'd prefer to listen to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 22 minutes ago, Chris A said: I like the active crossover sound a lot more. I know that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 12 hours ago, Deang said: Using your own math, a 2a3 or 45 SET amp would be clipping as soon as you turn it on. However, we know that these amplifiers are used with success with many other loudspeaker systems, including single driver designs, which also routinely use swamping resistors to smooth their response How do you get that from my math? A 2a3 or 45 SET amp isn't going to start clipping as soon as you turn it on Dean but the math can be used to demonstrates when a given amp is paired with any loudspeaker an approximate maximum listening level someone might expect and decide if that will meet their individual taste/requirements. 12 hours ago, Deang said: Once again, I produced Al's white paper which neither you or Kerry want to address. That's funny Dean.... I didn't realize you were waiting on me to address this paper. So I just read the paper and it actually supports my cautions to low wattage amplifier owners..!!! Dean if you will reread AL's paper I hope you will realize AL has made an assumption in this paper that leads to the false claim "The swamping resistor is a win-win situation and has no down side" and that assumption is an unlimited power source which is absolutely not the definition of a low wattage amplifier. The example I have posted proves there is absolutely a down side of wasted power and real possibility of higher distortion especially in the case of low wattage amplifiers. 12 hours ago, Deang said: I realize there is "a cost" in obtaining on the fly attenuation in these designs, I just don't think it's as dire as you're presenting. I've not presented anything as "dire" Dean that is just your interpretation of the facts I've posted but low wattage amplifier owners deserve to know their is some "down side" to the ALK network with swamping resistor since AL has made a claim there isn't. 12 hours ago, Deang said: So you're position is basically this: if you only have a couple of watts, use an earlier Klipsch filter (something I began advocating over a decade ago, but not because of power - but sound). My position is because you only have a couple of watts you need to understand that maximum listening level can be affected by the network. What works best for the individual is up to them. miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 No amount of debate is going to sway anyone's opinion here. Clearly there is more than one way to build a crossover that works. My preference is an adjustable passive, I like ALK crossovers. Chris A is all about actives ( I have done it, It works!) Time alignment has it's benefits, it's just more gear than I want to work with. Mikebse2a3 prefers a minimalist design. We have all heard them, they work. All of these crossovers can sound really good if set up properly! Can we all agree that Klipsch speakers are awesome regardless of crossover topology? HB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 8 hours ago, Honeybadger said: My preference is an adjustable passive, I like ALK crossovers. Chris A is all about actives ( I have done it, It works!) Time alignment has it's benefits, it's just more gear than I want to work with. Mikebse2a3 prefers a minimalist design. We have all heard them, they work. To be exact after playing with the ALK different Tap points for about a year I preferred the AK-3 to the ALK for two important reasons. (1) The AK-3 gave the best blend between the woofer/midrange/tweeter IMHO. (2) The AK-3 had the ability to reach higher SPL with my 2A3 SET Amplifier. I also updated a friend's AK-3/Klipschorns with the Klipsch AK-4/K55 upgrade kit and immediately noticed an improvement in perceived clarity in the woofer/midrange spectrum and the perceived dynamic impact especially on drums were much closer to my Jubilee system. And for the record after going active crossover with the Jubilee System I find there are so many benefits versus passive crossover not only in sound quality but other areas as well that It is my preference. If you want to hear the full potential of small wattage amplifiers like my Cary CAD2A3 SET, Cary CAD2A3si P/P and First Watt F3 connect them directly to the drivers of the system. miketn 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 11 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said: How do you get that from my math? A 2a3 or 45 SET amp isn't going to start clipping as soon as you turn it on Dean but the math can be used to demonstrates when a given amp is paired with any loudspeaker an approximate maximum listening level someone might expect and decide if that will meet their individual taste/requirements... I was being facetious. :-) Quote That's funny Dean.... I didn't realize you were waiting on me to address this paper. So I just read the paper and it actually supports my cautions to low wattage amplifier owners..!!! Dean if you will reread AL's paper I hope you will realize AL has made an assumption in this paper that leads to the false claim "The swamping resistor is a win-win situation and has no down side" and that assumption is an unlimited power source which is absolutely not the definition of a low wattage amplifier. The example I have posted proves there is absolutely a down side of wasted power and real possibility of higher distortion especially in the case of low wattage amplifiers. I don't have a problem with this, I've known for years that the swamping resistor dissipated more power than Al claimed. Quote I've not presented anything as "dire" Dean that is just your interpretation of the facts I've posted but low wattage amplifier owners deserve to know their is some "down side" to the ALK network with swamping resistor since AL has made a claim there isn't. I believe Kerry said 5 watts to the driver resulted 4 watts being dissipated in the form of heat. Your numbers didn't look much better. Admittedly, this sounds terrible - which is why I said "dire". However, you can push to a comfortable listening level with an iPhone - so it begs the question. Quote My position is because you only have a couple of watts you need to understand that maximum listening level can be affected by the network. What works best for the individual is up to them. miketn Of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 6 hours ago, wdecho said: Resistors are the least offensive electronic component They seem a bit more linear on a scope...for example, a resistive potentiometer (or resistive stepped attenuator) over a tapped autoformer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, Deang said: I believe Kerry said 5 watts to the driver resulted 4 watts being dissipated in the form of heat. Your numbers didn't look much better. Admittedly, this sounds terrible - which is why I said "dire". However, you can push to a comfortable listening level with an iPhone - so it begs the question. How does "push to a comfortable listening level with an iPhone" change anything I've said..? By the way I presented the ALK in the best light by assuming the Tap for the Squawker would be set at stock level. If someone decides to reduce the squawker -2db for example then you can subtract an additional 2db from the Max SPL ability of the system. Low wattage amplifier users should take note of this fact. "so it begs the question" .......your "comfortable listening level" or my comfortable listening level....... miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 I think "low wattage users" should consider buying something that has more than 3.5wpc. Good grief. Friends don't let friends buy wimpy amplifiers. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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