Scrappydue Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 you are way overthinking this. the avr wants them at 75db during calibration. it cannot turn the la scalas down enough. period. as for the surrounds, they are reference series, so you can take away 2-4 db on the efficiency rating since klipsch blows that spec out of the water. there you have it, 104 db mains with probably 94 db surrounds. a full 10db difference. could he benefit from an amp? sure. if he listens at or above reference often. doubt he does though. most dont on here. i have recently been looking into some big pro amps. then decided it would be for strict demo purposes only. which is stupid the older i get. anyone that comes over is just as happy demoing my system at -10 than if i go to reference. in fact most of the time, unless they are a extreme enthusiasts, if i go to reference i get told after that that was entirely too loud. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Fwiw, after Audyssey calibration on the system we have in my sig we watch movies at around -5 with no external amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 I'm typically at -10 or -15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 The system has no problem hitting reference, that's usually reserved for short demos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, Youthman said: The system has no problem hitting reference, that's usually reserved for short demos I imagine with your system it wouldn't. We have a small 2 seat HT that is in our 2,000 cu ft library so we also have quite a bit of natural room treatment. It helps that it's an odd shaped room with a high irregular A-frame ceiling in the main part and not many flat surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 8 hours ago, ellisr63 said: By what you are saying...you are loosing the efficiency of the La Scalas by allowing Audyssey to reduce the levels by 12db to get them up to the levels of the surrounds. This sure sounds like a waste of efficiency to me. I would much rather have a smaller amp powering them than having the AVR turn them down. That's what I thought at first, too. IMO, you aren't losing the efficiency of the La Scalas. The power amps come after the attenuators, and Audyssey should turn the La Scalas down by 12 dB (or more, if it could), if it has to in order to set them at the right level...but ... it won't have to if you use attenuators. Then, if your power amp has a given amount of RMS rated power -- I think you said 30 watts -- you will still have the same headroom that those 30 watt amps and the La Scalas would give you, so the efficiency is not being wasted. Audyssey originally set my Klipschorns at -12 dB, and would have set them even lower, if it could. I then put 12 dB (a coincidence) attenuators on every channel, between the preamp/processors and the power amps. I ran Audyssey, and it set the following trim levels LF -2 (was -12, before), C - 1.5 (was -12, a Belle Klipsch), RF -2.5 (was -12). The surrounds are much closer to the Main Listening Position, and much closer to the 8 Audyssey mic positions. Audyssey set them at -3.5 and -3.0. Then, since Audyssey had equalized the SPL of all these speakers, I removed all attenuators. Chris K., the founder and Chief Tehnical Officer of Audyssey confirmmed that now that those 12 dB attenuators were gone, but after Audyssey set the levels with them on, reference level would now be -12 on the Main Volume Control. BTW, reference level peaks are at up to 105 dB through each speaker except the sub; they are up to 115 dB through the sub. On a slightly different, but related, subject, although it may seem like you would be guaranteed 104 dB at 1 watt with the La Scalas, just 1 dB short of reference level for all speakers except the sub, that's only at 1 Meter. In a typical room, you lose 3 dB, or a bit more, for each doubling of distance (not to be confused with the 6 dB you lose for each doubling outside, atop a flag pole, or in an anechoic chamber). So, at 3 doublings of distance (8 Meters or about 26 feet), let's say you lose 9 dB. That would mean you will need about 8 watts to get reference level. You would have plenty of headroom provided by that 30 watt amp and a La Scala. In fact, you would get almost another 6 dB of headroom over reference level, i.e., almost 111 dB per channel. There seems to be a fair amount of confusion on this thread about Audyssey. Some of it may be mine. In any case, one of the very best explanations of Audyssey is available through this link: "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here" It takes less than an hour to read. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I need to get up to speed on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Scrappydue said: you are way overthinking this. the avr wants them at 75db during calibration. it cannot turn the la scalas down enough. period. as for the surrounds, they are reference series, so you can take away 2-4 db on the efficiency rating since klipsch blows that spec out of the water. there you have it, 104 db mains with probably 94 db surrounds. a full 10db difference. could he benefit from an amp? sure. if he listens at or above reference often. doubt he does though. most dont on here. i have recently been looking into some big pro amps. then decided it would be for strict demo purposes only. which is stupid the older i get. anyone that comes over is just as happy demoing my system at -10 than if i go to reference. in fact most of the time, unless they are a extreme enthusiasts, if i go to reference i get told after that that was entirely too loud. Quick Question...if it can't turn the LaScalas down enough, wouldn't the balance from the mains to the surrounds be wrong (since the mains can't be turned down enough)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 Regardless of what "level" each trim is set to in the AVR, each channel has been adjusted to the same SPL using an SPL meter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Youthman said: Regardless of what "level" each trim is set to in the AVR, each channel has been adjusted to the same SPL using an SPL meter. Just for info sake.. How much did you have to change the levels after Audyssey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 Below you can see the trim levels after running Audyssey. I then rant test tones and adjusted all to the same level as my Front Left speaker. For the most part, I just had to increase the volume of my surrounds by 3dB. Not sure why Audyssey could not have done this on it's own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 The subs were WAY off when using the DB Meter. Had to increase them almost 10dB to match the other speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, Youthman said: Below you can see the trim levels after running Audyssey. I then rant test tones and adjusted all to the same level as my Front Left speaker. For the most part, I just had to increase the volume of my surrounds by 3dB. Not sure why Audyssey could not have done this on it's own. Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Are the Mains measuring 75 db. at the MLP? Those sub trims look high, and most likey they are high to keep up with the Mains, which are more than 75 db. at the MLP. Do the subs hit 75 db at the MLP? Reference for you is somewhere around -10 to -13 looking at things. Going much higher with movie content may cause clipping in the digital domain. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted October 31, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2016 This may be a dumb question but when you ask are the mains at 75dB, are you referring to when I run a test tone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 6 hours ago, ellisr63 said: Quick Question...if it can't turn the LaScalas down enough, wouldn't the balance from the mains to the surrounds be wrong (since the mains can't be turned down enough)? Yes! The balance will be wrong. That's why you have to do one of the following: 1) If you have separate power amps, you could use the attenuator method, so Audyssey can set your levels properly. If you put attenuators of equal value on every channel, the levels of all will not only be able to be set by Audyssey where Audyssey wants them, they will be at the right SPL compared to each other. If you want to, you can remove the attenuators after Audyssey calibration. If you do, Reference level will be below 0 on the main volume control by the number of dB that equals the value of the attenuators. 2) Use an SPL meter to set each channel to the same SPL from the main listening postion, BUT don't use the pink noise in your processor (or AVR) because it bypasses Audyssey, and doesn't pass the test noise through Audyssey's EQ corrections. Unless, by coincidence, your room needs very little EQ action from Audyssey, the only valid test signals are those that pass through Audyssey before getting to your speakers! You listen to music coming through Audyssey's EQ, so you need to adjust the levels (if you're doing it manually) with the noise going through Audyssey EQ. To take an extreme example, suppose one of your speakers is in a big mode, and has very exaggerated response at 100 Hz, say a 9 dB peak at that frequency. If you just turn on the pink noise in your processor, and measure that speaker from your main listening position, you will be setting the level incorrectly for music and movie sound coming through that speaker, since, for them, the 100 Hz peak will have been (at least partially) corrected by going through Audyssey, so you must use a pink noise source that also goes through Audyssey. The solution is to use a test disc that allows you to pump pink noise through each channel, one at a time. The signal from the test disc will go through Audyssey the same way the music or sound from a disc in your player does. See part D, section e)3. Why is it a bad idea to use your AVR test tones and a SPL meter to check trim levels? here: "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here" or 3) Use some other valid strategy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 19 hours ago, Youthman said: This may be a dumb question but when you ask are the mains at 75dB, are you referring to when I run a test tone? Yes, the calibrated Main speakers should be around 75 db. at the MLP. The combined subs should also be near 75 db after calibration at the MLP. Post calibratiion it is ok to turn them up a bit to taste. If the subs are hot after calibration, then the mains and other speakers may also have to be hot to keep up with the sub. For example, if the sub is 85 db., the mains will have to be louder to get 75 db. at the MLP. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 On October 31, 2016 at 10:55 AM, ellisr63 said: Quick Question...if it can't turn the LaScalas down enough, wouldn't the balance from the mains to the surrounds be wrong (since the mains can't be turned down enough)? looks like this has been answered above.....but here it is again in case you missed it 22 hours ago, garyrc said: Yes! The balance will be wrong. That's why you have to do one of the following: 1) If you have separate power amps, you could use the attenuator method, so Audyssey can set your levels properly. If you put attenuators of equal value on every channel, the levels of all will not only be able to be set by Audyssey where Audyssey wants them, they will be at the right SPL compared to each other. If you want to, you can remove the attenuators after Audyssey calibration. If you do, Reference level will be below 0 on the main volume control by the number of dB that equals the value of the attenuators. 2) Use an SPL meter to set each channel to the same SPL from the main listening postion, BUT don't use the pink noise in your processor (or AVR) because it bypasses Audyssey, and doesn't pass the test noise through Audyssey's EQ corrections. Unless, by coincidence, your room needs very little EQ action from Audyssey, the only valid test signals are those that pass through Audyssey before getting to your speakers! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBPK402 Posted November 2, 2016 Share Posted November 2, 2016 3 hours ago, Scrappydue said: looks like this has been answered above.....but here it is again in case you missed it He posted it in response to my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted November 2, 2016 Author Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2016 Ok, so I took the advice and pulled out my Disney WOW Calibration Disk so that I could use Pink Noise Generator that wasn't from the AVR. Before starting, I took SPL Readings from the Onkyo. When I turned it on, it was set at -20dB so I left it at that. Wasn't sure if I was supposed to set it at a certain dB before calibrating. Onkyo AVR Test Tones at default -20dB Vol 76dB for speakers 79-81dB for subs I then loaded the Disney Wow Disk. The instructions said it will send a "Band Limited Pink Noise" to all speakers. Disney WOW Disk (Band Limited Pink Noise) at -20dB Vol FL - 63dB Center - 63dB FR - 63dB SR - 69dB SBR - 68dB SBL - 68dB SL - 67dB They have a separate calibration for subs. It said it would produce "Pink Noise for the LFE channel". They suggest increasing the trim of the subs 3dB higher than the other speakers. I took a dB reading Disney WOW Disk (Pink Noise for the LFE Channel) at -20dB Vol Subs - 90dB WHOA! I guess you can say they are a little hot. So these are only readings above, no adjustments to any trims yet. Wanted to share my results before moving forward. From what I can see, there definitely is a difference between the Onkyo's internal Pink Noise and the WOW Disk. Is this because one is using Audyssey and one is not? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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