Audyssey Trims Bottomed Out for LaScalas and Subs

[Youthman]

I ended up using a cardboard box for 4-8 positions since my tripod was too high.  I can bring a boom mic home from my youth room at the church.  Good idea.

[garyrc]

Youth:

 

• If you use an SPL meter, adjust the levels using a test disk, or some other independent source -- don't use the test noise in an AVR, because it bypasses all of the Audyssey EQ corrections, so you would be matching levels before Audyssey correction, rather than after.  You want equal energy from all speakers from the MLP after, i.e., with, Audyssey correction. 
• The best way to understand Audyssey, IMO, is to read the link below.  It will take you about 1/2 hour.  The AVR manuals and online guides (except for this one) suck at explaining it, once again, IMO.
• Chris K. of Audyssey has a way to deal with highly efficient speakers and Audyssey that doesn't require attenuators.  I did not need it, because I have separate power amps, and did use attenuators.  If you have Facebook, you can ask Chris.  If you don't, he did provide the answer in about 2011, on "Ask Audyssey."  Google it. 
• It looks like your chairs are leather.  Several people over on the AVS "Official Audyssey Thread, Part II" (one of the longest threads in AVS's history) recommend temporarily putting a couple of layers of soft blanket over leather chair backs when running Audyssey calibration, to avoid reflections that screw up the filter setting process.  After running Audyssey most people remove the blankets.  I'm not sure that having your mic tipped back like that is a good idea.  Audyssey has compensation for their mic built into AVRs based on the mic aiming straight up.
• For what it's worth, Audyssey works wonders with my Khorns and Belle center, smoothing them out, and removing a broad peak centered at about 8K, and greatly improving clarity and balance.
• The one deviation from flat that many people impose is to turn up the sub a bit after running Audyssey.  This goes part way toward conforming to a "house curve" research has shown most people prefer (e.g., the Harmon curve).
• Best of luck!

• ---

  "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"

[derrickdj1]

No, just turn them down.  Their max output should remain the same.  I calibrate each sub to 66 -68 db trying to get the combined value to 72-73 db.  You can always up the trim after calibration.

[Scrappydue]

Any update on this after boom mic? 

[Youthman]

Unfortunately I have not had an opportunity to turn it up since I calibrated it.  At low volume, dialogue seems much better.  Before it just didn't sound right.

[nitrofan]

Yes i would think that youth. Many will disagree with me but i absolutely hate audyssey. My system never sounded worse than when i used it to set the levels and eq. No bass, no highs, just muddy lifeless midrange.  Set it up the way it sounds best to your ears in your listening position and forget it. 

[Youthman]

I have had no issues with Audyssey as far as the sound.  I just had not re-calibrated it since I angled the LaScalas downward.  I'm "pretty sure" that I had re-calibrated it after installing it behind the AT Screen but I cannot be sure.

[garyrc]

2 hours ago, nitrofan said:

Yes i would think that youth. Many will disagree with me but i absolutely hate audyssey. My system never sounded worse than when i used it to set the levels and eq. No bass, no highs, just muddy lifeless midrange.  Set it up the way it sounds best to your ears in your listening position and forget it. 

My Khorns, Belle center, and Heresy II surrounds have never sounded better than when I used Audyssey to set the levels and EQ.  Great highs, with increased clarity.  Most people who use Audyssey turn the sub up a bit after calibrating,  This gives them smoother and more powerful lows.  A lot may depend on what needs to be corrected about the room and speakers.  Be sure to try both Audyssey Reference and Audyssey FLAT.  A Seymour screen should not change the calibration much at all.  Ours may reduce the ultra highs by about 1.5 dB, as I remember, BUT re-running Audyssey fixed that beautifully.

[wvu80]

Youth I don't think we have touched on other settings.  Are you using Dynamic EQ in the ONK or the Dynamic Volume?

 

My Onk 717 is using Dynamic EQ, but Dynamic Volume is Off.  Since Audyssey sets all speakers relative to Reference, I rarely run the speakers at Reference but I want that balance at medium volumes which the Dynamic EQ gives me.

+++

 

Part of what I couldn't wrap my head around is that my LS (at that time) were running -12db and I felt like I was leaving some performance on the table.

 

I know this is a lot of work, but you might want to start with the Audyssey settings (about -12) and REDUCE all settings relative to 0 by -6 Db.  That means your L/C/R will be running at about -6 Db instead of -12.  Then play your system as loud as your ears dictate and don't worry about "Reference" levels.

 

My thinking was that I wanted the horn loaded drivers to play loud enough to, well, load. 

[Youthman]

5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Youth I don't think we have touched on other settings.  Are you using Dynamic EQ in the ONK or the Dynamic Volume?

Well...I didn't think my Onkyo TX-NR5008 had Dynamic EQ but looking at the manual, it does.  I'll have to look at the menu this evening when I get home to see what is set.  Most guys seem to recommend turning Dynamic EQ on.

 

5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

Part of what I couldn't wrap my head around is that my LS (at that time) were running -12db and I felt like I was leaving some performance on the table.

That's probably why I started this thread.

 

5 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I know this is a lot of work, but you might want to start with the Audyssey settings (about -12) and REDUCE all settings relative to 0 by -6 Db.  That means your L/C/R will be running at about -6 Db instead of -12.  Then play your system as loud as your ears dictate and don't worry about "Reference" levels. 

 

My thinking was that I wanted the horn loaded drivers to play loud enough to, well, load. 

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one.  Below are my most recent settings After Audyssey Calibration and then the settings adjusted after using my SPL Meter to get all speakers to the same SPL Level.

 

My final settings "After SPL Adjustments" have my mains around -12dB, surrounds and subs around -3.5dB.  If I bump everything up by 6dB making mains around -12dB and surrounds and subs around +3dB....wouldn't that produce the same sound, just at a different Volume Number on the receiver?  Aren't the horns playing the same loudness whether they are at -12dB with Volume at say 0dB or if I have the LCR at -6dB and have the Volume at -6dB?  Just trying to understand the logic here.

 

[derrickdj1]

Still getting max trim cuts.  Time to bust out the back wall of the HT and move the speakers back, lol.  On a serious note, why do you feel that you might not be getting everything out of the LaScala's.  An spl meter in a few movies should give you an ideal of what peak spl you are getting.  My take is that the amount of preamp voltage from the avr is going to be less which is not necessarily bad.

 

I guess not to exceed reference spl, the avr may only have to be set to -10 or so.

[Youthman]

1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

On a serious note, why do you feel that you might not be getting everything out of the LaScala's.

It's not that I don't think I'm getting everything out of the LaScalas, I just want to make sure that Audyssey is calibrating correctly seeing that it is possible that when Audyssey ran it's test, that it wanted to set the LaScalas at say -15dB when it only allows down to -12dB.  I didn't want this to throw off the EQ Settings if there was another way to do it.  If it's only levels that are effected, I can correct that (and have) with my SPL meter to match each channel to the same SPL Level.

 

 

 

[derrickdj1]

I'm guessing that Auddysee is getting the FR, phase and things in the time domain correct.  Just the levels may not be right is what I'm thinking.  Whoever thought that some speakers are so efficient that avr' makers don't accout for that.  I guess most of the speaker market is not horns.  I have the opposite problem: a lot of my trims are in the positive in spite of using the 200 watt Acurus amp. Mains +0.5, SBR/SBL +2/+4 and FHL/FHR +7/+9.  It's related to distance but, I would like them lower even though I have not found a problem with the positive trim numbers.

[wvu80]

3 hours ago, Youthman said:

9 hours ago, wvu80 said:

My thinking was that I wanted the horn loaded drivers to play loud enough to, well, load. 

 

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one.  Below are my most recent settings After Audyssey Calibration and then the settings adjusted after using my SPL Meter to get all speakers to the same SPL Level.

 

The concept is horn loading.  I hope someone can explain this better than I can.

 

Horn loaded speakers don't use electrically coupled drivers, they use compression drivers.  The compression driver needs to be driven (move enough air) until it's coupled to the horn mouth, at which time the horn is loaded with air and you begin to get the benefit of the horn.

 

I think of it like playing a trumpet.  If there is a small amount of air produced by the musician, essentially no notes are produced, or at lower levels you don't get a note that sounds full, it sounds soft and thin.  If air is increased you get a full resonant note that sounds great.  At the point air flow is increased to the minimal level required to produce a full sound, that is the concept of horn loading.

 

To go full circle if the LS is receiving an electrical signal that is too low the horn doesn't load properly and sound quality will be thin relatively speaking especially at lower SPL.  If Audyssey is setting the trim level at -12 I wonder if the horn is playing in its optimum range.

[Youthman]

I see what you mean.  I'm wondering if increasing trims 6dB will have any effect on that at all though.  I'm VERY new to horns....as the only fully horn loaded speaker I've owned have been the LaScalas.

[Youthman]

1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

I have the opposite problem: a lot of my trims are in the positive in spite of using the 200 watt Acurus amp. Mains +0.5, SBR/SBL +2/+4 and FHL/FHR +7/+9.  It's related to distance but, I would like them lower even though I have not found a problem with the positive trim numbers.

If you are worried about the trims being in the positive, you could always lower all levels by a certain dB, your "Reference" level would just be that many dB higher than 0dB.

[derrickdj1]

Since Roy D and some Klipsch folks are moderators, we should ask them to post their views.  The question on the trims have come up more than once in the last few years.  I just don't think you need much in voltage to push the LaScala, K horn, ect.  I have seen these ran on milliwatts.

[wvu80]

1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:

Since Roy D and some Klipsch folks are moderators, we should ask them to post their views.  The question on the trims have come up more than once in the last few years.

 

That is such a good idea and we are so lucky to have access to top professionals in the field.

 

I suspect Scrappy will be proven to be correct when he said that -12 as set by Audyssey is the correct and normal setting for high efficiency La Scala class speakers.  We just have to get used to that idea, coming from a 2-channel perspective where "reference level" was not even a term,

[babadono]

On 10/12/2016 at 6:13 PM, Youthman said:

Running test now with sub knobs set at 7 clicks out of 40.  That's 17% on each volume knob.

Hey YM  volume/gain knobs are USUALLY not linear, just FYI.

[CECAA850]

Another thing about horns and room correction microphones is that the horn needs to be pointed at the mic when doing your calibration.  Speakers that point away from the mic will give you some screwy readings.  Direct radiating loudspeakers are a little more forgiving in that aspect.