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Mitchibo

Should I stay or should I go...

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I have a Denon 5200 in 11.1 with klipsch all around. The sub is a RPW10 positioned a bit from the wall and firing back toward the TV. It seems like I have lots of bass but I keep reading of guys with 2 RPW12 subs or at least multiple large subs. Am I missing something here? Is it really useful to have bigger and more than one sub? I plead ignorance. Lil help? 

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Multiple subs can even out the response throughout the room but requires more time to set up properly. 

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17 hours ago, Mitchibo said:

I have a Denon 5200 in 11.1 with klipsch all around. The sub is a RPW10 positioned a bit from the wall and firing back toward the TV. It seems like I have lots of bass but I keep reading of guys with 2 RPW12 subs or at least multiple large subs. Am I missing something here? Is it really useful to have bigger and more than one sub? I plead ignorance. Lil help? 

The pursuit of bass has a few different forms.

 

Many people love home theater, and they want their systems to replay the entire spectrum well.  To do that, you need a sub capable of playing down to 20hz or even lower.  Generally speaking, this is accomplished either by building a large sub (ported) or using a lot of power and the right driver to EQ the sealed sub down to the lowest frequencies.  So reason #1 to have larger subs (or capable sealed subs) is to replay as much as possible from a home theater, or music recording.

 

Having multiple subs is particularly important if a room has more than one listener.  Bass is not consistent naturally in most any room, and so what sounds good at one position in the room does not in another.  It changes in fact quickly sometimes in just a matter of a foot or so one way or the other.  So listener #1 at the main spot sounds good, but everybody else is compromised.  Why?  Because low frequencies are difficult to manage in most rooms.  You could EQ it to sound better at position 2, but then position 1 changes and becomes worse.  So what to do?

 

Add another subwoofer or 2 or 3.  By doing so, the consistency increases.  What was one point source is now 2, so the 2 of them are combining in ways that can make both positions sound good.  OR -- bad, which is what CEC is referring to.  

 

Other people add additional subs because they need more capability.  Whether they are listening to music or HT, they don't have enough volume for reference, or just for their listening preferences.  So they add subs, and the "load" on each sub is reduced because with a spread load there is less required of each part.  So 2 subs, 4 subs, 8 subs, the capability of the system goes up, and the demand on each sub itself goes down.  Which is why some people on a budget will build multiple "cheapy" subs.  And those needing or wanting a great system build higher end ones that can do everything and anything for that matter.

 

So the answer to the question comes from asking a different one -- what exactly are you searching for?   what is missing or would be improved?

 

A single subwoofer, especially one that is not positioned properly and EQd in some fashion, will inevitably sound boomy at certain tones, miss others, and can be generally good for music and nasty for HT.    Many people who hear a single sub HT room don't like the scary sounding BOOMS that come from it...and the reason is that those are huge PEAKS in the response that should not be there.   A truly smooth response...especially across multiple seats, is a very pleasurable, fun, and in non way offensive sounding experience.  THAT is really "why".     

 

Many discussions and studies have been done.  The basic conclusions were this - 2 subs will get 90% of the possible benefits that can be achieved in MOST rooms.  They will be smoother, they will have more capability, and EQd properly will be a very nice experience.  Positioning is very room dependent but is the key to any number of subs being optimized.

 

To personalize the conversation, I would say ask yourself, why is my sub where it is?  If it's because it looks good there, you've still got a lot of work to do optimizing that one sub.   BIG benefits come from doing this.  Even if you move to 2 subs or more, knowing where subs sound best in your room is key.  

 

Hope this helps.  

 

 

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This is a lot to take in and will be useful. First I use Audessy for calibration. It does a fair job. Yes, it tends to be light on the sub level but I always readjust. I did indeed place the sub where it looks good however I only have a few geographical possibilities. I sit on one end of the couch and the sub is placed at the opposite end right beside it. I live alone so everything is tuned for my listening position. The H3's in front do a good job with C/O set at 80hz and I get plenty of boom from the RPW10, even in my chest. Watching HBO's The Pacific has a good quantity of loud cannon bang and other low end effects. All that to say it seems like the sub is smooth and powerful. If I did get another one would it matter if it was a different size?

 

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3 hours ago, jason str said:

Better too much than too little, you can always turn it down.

Exactly!

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mitch the easy answer is no, it won't be a problem.  

 

best reco i can give is if you have a ported sub and are adding, add another ported sub (and same for sealed)

there are some issues aligning a ported and sealed sub together so nice to avoid that if possible

 

Audyssey rocks but it cannot overcome bad positioning...no matter how much correction it offers it won't compare to putting it in the right spot and then running audyssey.  finding that spot is usually easy with one sub.  try it if you haven't.  put the sub in the actual seat where you sit, and move yourself around the room until you hear the "best" bass.  Try putting the sub there and see if you like it better.  Audyssey can correct and smooth significant nulls and peaks but does a far better job when given a great starting point.  If you've done the bass crawl or measured your room, then the 2nd sub needs a purpose - perhaps to get down lower than the one you have now can.  If most listening is solo, you can get away with one sub no problem no matter what it is, so that's another option.  Get a big daddy sub and get rid of the other or use both but make the big daddy the primary sub and the current one a fill in that supports it.

 

A very, very fun and time consuming rabbit hole exists in the world of "bass".  And the rewards are worth it!

 

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I like subs in pairs.  Smoother room response an the ability to fill the room.  With 11 speakers, two subs would be nice.

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My little RPW10 only runs down to 35hz.Its discontinued as well so no doubling up. With the above input I will have...have to...upgrade to a R-112. Or two. Damn you guys. ;)

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What speakers comprise the rest of your system?  You referenced H3s in one of your posts.  

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Yes the H3's are new. Love them.Rp-450c, Rp-240s, rp-150m, rp-140sa atmos, and two g-16 flat panels run by a small legrand amp for extra height.

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Yeah I thought about the 115, but I found two 112's for a fair price. My room is wider than it is deep and 8 ft. ceilings. Now I need some stereophonic ear plugs because I'm going to play stuff so loud my neighbors will achieve the "brown note". ( South Park reference). 

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Mitch,

 

Unless you live in a Condo, or a Duplex, I wouldn't worry to much about a pair of 15s upsetting the neighbors, I am running six 18 inch subs, and some here are even running eight 18 inch subs.  ;)

 

Oh, and I am good down to 15Hz as well  :)

 

Roger

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I can hear your subs all the way down here in Texas.  15Hz should should shake your foundation apart. 

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So I installed the R112's just to the outside of the mains. It hooked them up to the LFE on the back of the Denon. I turned the filter on the sub to LFE. I ran Audyssey with the subs set to 50%. Naturally it said "turn them down!"  I set them each about 78-79 (25-30%) Db and ran it. It offset the subs to -12 Db. I suppose it's better to have - than running the pre too hot. I've got a lot of room to heat them up. 

 

Listening to tow chanel sounds great. I'll have to put in a movie. I have The Martian and the latest Mad Max as these are cool in 4K.

 

And so the advice given here has paid off. I DO like the bigger image. Thanks to the above posts. I would still solicit advice. Let it fly. IMG_0027.thumb.JPG.e3f05293199c03ee0266c7ce875f3311.JPG

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I would advise moving the sub on the right in the picture. Is there room behind you? Maybe it's just my preference, but I think you lose a lot from a sub when it's placed in an open space like that. Just my .02

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