NotOnSugarMountain Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I have a 5.1 surround system consisting of five B&W VM1 satellite speakers. These are small 8 ohms with one 1" tweeter and one 5" bass in each. Nice sounding, but I find the clarity of TV/Movie dialogue lacking and would like your opinion on replacing just the center VM1 with either a Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-440C or the brand new Reference R-34C. The left, right, and two surround VM1s are all wall mounted, but the center is just sitting there on a shelf under the flat screen. Could this kind of mismatching of the front three speakers improve dialogue or would it just muddy the sound? My AVR is set to send all frequencies below 80Hz to the subwoofer. So the 82Hz to 21kHz frequency response of the Klipsch R-34C would suffice. And since it's only six inches deep, it would fit much better under the flat screen than the 14" deep Klipsch RP-440C which has a frequency response of 59Hz to 25kHz. However, I'd buy the RP-440C if y'all thought it produced clearer dialogue and/or would sonically blend better with the VM1 satellites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Your center speaker is the most important in a HT it is imperative that it match the timbre' of your mains or you'll have a muddled mess. Pans back and forth across the front stage will make it stick out like a sore thumb. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I've been there and anything larger than the little satellite will be a huge improvement imo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Go ahead and buy the Klipsch center. Don't be surprised when you start replacing your other speakers because the Klipsch sounds better. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 FWIW--I ran a mismatched center and had zero issues. Of course all the speakers were good quality--Take a Shot, Live a Little. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Don’t underestimate those little B&W’s. I owned them a few years ago, albeit briefly, but they are quite impressive. With that said, the RP centers (used to own the 450) are much larger and will definitely put out more and different sound. Even with it hall of the amazing room calibration these new receivers offer, I am still a huge timber match guy. The B&W’s have a much different sound characteristic so they likely won’t blend well with the Klipsch center. If you don’t want tower speakers, due to size restraints, the 160M’s would definitely match the Klipsch center and they will keep up with it’s output. Down the the rabbit hole, you will likely go from there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You can EQ out a lot of timbre differences... 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 hours ago, rebuy said: FWIW--I ran a mismatched center and had zero issues. Of course all the speakers were good quality-- I agree with this. Get the best center you can afford. "Timbre matching" is way overrated. Accurate dialog is accurate, matching to inaccurate L/R does not help and it does not make the center somehow "muddy." Ninety percent of TV/movies is dialog and 90% of dialog comes out of the center. Dialog does not come out of the L/R and there are no movies I've ever heard of where someone is doing a monologue for five minutes walking back and forth across the screen while the sound follows him. It's not the scenario you have to worry about when running "mis-matched" speakers. My biggest concern about your post is you seem to want to go small on the Klipsch center. I have preference for center speakers with 6" to 7" woofers in the MTM style, or MMTMM of something substantial like the RC-64. The RC-64 has a 1.75" compression driver for the HF/mids, which is where the magic happens IMO. The RP-504 and RP-404 both have 1" compression drivers. I would suggest the RC-64 III, then the RP-504C, then the RP-404C. Disclaimer: I own the RC-64 I, I've heard the RC-64 II, and I have not heard the RP-x lines. I would also point out that "timbre matching" is the majority opinion. Mine is the minority opinion based on my experience. Finding the best QUALITY center speaker is what makes the difference for clear dialog. Don't take my word for it. Listen to all sides and decide for yourself what is best for your audio setup. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 My experience calls for timbre matching. I learned it from this forum over a decade ago. The advice was not wrong. It is possible that some centers might overcome the problem to a degree, but the concept is about the entire experience of sound, not just the dialogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 You can absolutely change a speakers timbre by tuning it via EQ. It may not be ideal or completely seem less, but it can be made to be very close. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebuy Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 If you get a decent size center and do any "upgrading" at a later time, you already have the center covered. I personally like a big center. I don't understand why dialogue would be unclear without a center. My system can deliver clear sound without the center. Maybe you also have other issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Here's a good question for those of you who believe "timbre matching above all." Do you believe a single Heresy center speaker is timbre matched to a pair of Klipschorns? Why would PWK use an obviously mis-matched Heresy for a center? Was he reasoning along the same lines that I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 The content was waaay different waaay back then. *edit* This might come across a little harsh but that definitely wasn’t my intention. I have always have very good luck with all matching speakers, especially when it comes to these intense, modern movies and videos demanding soundtracks. and yes, I know Klipschhorns and Heresys would out perform my Ultra 2 system when properly calibrated. I just like to give the software the best chance to do it’s job, as possible;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotOnSugarMountain Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 10 hours ago, rebuy said: FWIW--I ran a mismatched center and had zero issues. Of course all the speakers were good quality--Take a Shot, Live a Little. You're right, I do need to live a little. Despite the good points of the naysayers, I'm gonna experiment with some mismatching! 6 hours ago, Schu said: You can EQ out a lot of timbre differences... Thanks for that. I will rerun Yamaha's YPAO with the B&W/Klipsch mismatch to see if it helps smooth things out. 6 hours ago, wvu80 said: I agree with this. Get the best center you can afford. "Timbre matching" is way overrated. Accurate dialog is accurate, matching to inaccurate L/R does not help and it does not make the center somehow "muddy." Ninety percent of TV/movies is dialog and 90% of dialog comes out of the center. Dialog does not come out of the L/R and there are no movies I've ever heard of where someone is doing a monologue for five minutes walking back and forth across the screen while the sound follows him. It's not the scenario you have to worry about when running "mis-matched" speakers. My biggest concern about your post is you seem to want to go small on the Klipsch center. I have preference for center speakers with 6" to 7" woofers in the MTM style, or MMTMM of something substantial like the RC-64. The RC-64 has a 1.75" compression driver for the HF/mids, which is where the magic happens IMO. The RP-504 and RP-404 both have 1" compression drivers. I would suggest the RC-64 III, then the RP-504C, then the RP-404C. Disclaimer: I own the RC-64 I, I've heard the RC-64 II, and I have not heard the RP-x lines. I would also point out that "timbre matching" is the majority opinion. Mine is the minority opinion based on my experience. Finding the best QUALITY center speaker is what makes the difference for clear dialog. Don't take my word for it. Listen to all sides and decide for yourself what is best for your audio setup. Thanks for this detail and your Disclaimer. Understood. I am thinking about your concern that I'm going small on the Klipsch center. And that 1 3/4" titanium dome tweeter on the 55 pound RC-III does read like a serious upgrade from my current 6 pound satellite center! And what's the point of mismatching if I don't go BIG center? However, please explain why you like your centers to deliver bass down to 57Hz when... male vocals bottom out at about 100Hz. good subwoofers deliver the best low end. I've found that these multi-amp AVRs distribute power best to multiple speakers when I set my passive speakers to "small" and crossover all bass below 80Hz for the powered subwoofers to handle. Last, my flat screen is flush mounted on the wall (along with the left and right satellites) and that RC-64 III is 15" deep and the size of a tank. Yikes! That is why I was thinking a smallish Klipsch center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 hours ago, wvu80 said: Here's a good question for those of you who believe "timbre matching above all." Do you believe a single Heresy center speaker is timbre matched to a pair of Klipschorns? Why would PWK use an obviously mis-matched Heresy for a center? Was he reasoning along the same lines that I think? Because the center position didn't have a corner for a 3rd Korn. 😀 Klipsch preaches a matching series in all their lines. If one hasn't run 3 identical LCR how could one judge? There is timbre matching and then there is an identical match both of which are audible improvements imo. In most peoples setups a really big center is used because the room itself has a lot of smearing and reflections that muddy the sound. Larger is only better in many cases because the cause of the smearing isn't addressed and the larger center basically through brute force overcomes some of the interference by having a higher sensitivity and often played louder. Clarity is an amazing thing imo. Eith it there is no need for a larger or louder center. I fully understand the pursuit of big bad axx centers, but to me it's a lot like fixing a golfers slice by lining up facing further left as opposed to addressing the slice itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 42 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: (respectful Snip!, pasted below) In most peoples setups a really big center is used because the room itself has a lot of smearing and reflections that muddy the sound. Larger is only better in many cases because the cause of the smearing isn't addressed and the larger center basically through brute force overcomes some of the interference by having a higher sensitivity and often played louder. Clarity is an amazing thing imo. Eith it there is no need for a larger or louder center. I fully understand the pursuit of big bad axx centers, but to me it's a lot like fixing a golfers slice by lining up facing further left as opposed to addressing the slice itself. Ha! I give you full credit for your thoughtful answers! Nicely done! May I address some of your points for the sake of discussion? 42 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said: Because the center position didn't have a corner for a 3rd Korn. 😀 Klipsch preaches a matching series in all their lines. If one hasn't run 3 identical LCR how could one judge? There is timbre matching and then there is an identical match both of which are audible improvements imo. I've owned Khorns. I bet a 3rd Khorn would make a fantastic center speaker. It doesn't need a corner because it will acoustically couple with the L/R Khorns and doesn't need to produce deep bass for vocals/dialog. That's my guess anyway. I've heard two large setups, @mustang guy and @Youthman both of whom had La Scala trios, large room, highly dialed in. The front sound stage was seamless! That backs up your point that having an identical matching center produces an audible improvement and my contention that having a QUALITY center speaker is the key to clear dialog and vocals. Win-win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoboKlipsch Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 An important point to remember is speakers aren't coupling to each other unless they are playing a completely identical signal. So for example the center horn gets no benefit from the left and right unless playing the same thing. Also remember bass management grew up in the 80s...long after the khorns. So attempting to find a suitable center at the time was critical because it was full range. Heck even a center channel was a new concept! WVU always fun to discuss your points are very good. In most rooms adding 2 to 6 acoustic panels would be enough to fix many people's center channel issues. Once you put in a few panels it's like adding subs....addictive a each add makes it better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 21 hours ago, wvu80 said: Here's a good question for those of you who believe "timbre matching above all." Do you believe a single Heresy center speaker is timbre matched to a pair of Klipschorns? Why would PWK use an obviously mis-matched Heresy for a center? Was he reasoning along the same lines that I think? Here's a counter to ponder. Go into any movie theater with a good sound system. Are the speakers timbre matched, or not? The answer is obvious. An optimal system uses the optimal solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T2K Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 1 hour ago, oldtimer said: Here's a counter to ponder. Go into any movie theater with a good sound system. Are the speakers timbre matched, or not? The answer is obvious. An optimal system uses the optimal solution. ...and take your bullet-proof vest. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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