elee532 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 (edited) Just starting to get a new pair of LaScala II speakers setup in my system. I have a Denon X3400H which has Audyssey XT32. No Center. Two Rythmik subs. Pair of small Boston Acoustic bookshelves for my surrounds. Primary listening is music (lots of 5.1 surround SACD and DVD-A). Main listening area is about 18’ x 22’ with a few nooks and a staircase up to the second floor. First run of audyssey set fronts and rears to small with 60Hz crossover for the LaScala and 40Hz for the surrounds. Needless to say, this surprised me. I’ve always been kind of disappointed in the amount of “midbass slam” from my system. I’m hoping for a bit more from the LaScala and curious what folks might recommend for bass management settings? Large or small? If small, what crossover level? LFE + Main? LPF for LFE at 120Hz or higher? I also just bought the Audyssey app, so I can mess around with the curve. I’ve never done this before though. Any thoughts on settings here? BTW, I attached the first try at correction results for the front left speaker. Edited September 3, 2018 by elee532 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 1 hour ago, elee532 said: Any thoughts on settings here? BTW, I attached the first try at correction results for the front left speaker. That dip at 2 kHz (I don't know the vertical axis scale that you posted because they're cut off, but I'm assuming that the vertical axis is 10 dB/division) looks bigger and wider after Audyssey than before. I'd turn off any "BBC dip" or other 1.8-2.2 kHz dip settings that may be controllable within the version of Audyssey that you own. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus89 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Swap the k33 for a k43 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted September 3, 2018 Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2018 Don't know about in a LaScala but in a MWM a K33 goes lower than a K43. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus89 Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 Don't know about in a LaScala but in a MWM a K33 goes lower than a K43. Yes k33 goes lower but k43 known for handling more power and people including me noticed a really beefy lower mid range if I’m saying that correctly. I liked it a lotSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 3, 2018 Share Posted September 3, 2018 3 hours ago, elee532 said: Also, it looks like the bass has been rolled off below 110 Hz. That's something that I'd recommend undoing to regain the apparent free response down to 57 Hz (i.e., one octave of performance), and add one negative PEQ at about 57 Hz of high "Q" (low bandwidth) to smooth that peak. This is of course a function of the smoothing of the frequency response curve in the above plot. It may be that the curve smoothing shows extended response down to 57 Hz that's actually very spotty/peaky that 's not really able to correct to a smooth frequency response result. [You might gather that I have a few issues with what Audyssey does on its own...and you'd be right...I prefer using a parametric EQ upstream of the amplifier (like in a DSP crossover) to correct these sort of issues--and using REW to help optimize the PEQ filters to achieve flat response. Audyssey also doesn't provide you a phase plot (IIRC), which is also not very admirable behavior.] Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbphoto Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I have stock LS2's with a single Rythmik F12-G sub. The settings will depend a lot on your room. In my case, for 2-channel listening, I run the LS2's full-range (not through an AVR) and set the crossover on the sub to 80hz/24. I have a large room null at 52hz, and I find crossing the sub at 80hz helps minimize this hole as best as possible - along with helping the LS2's low-end. I have a room node at 31hz that I try to flatten out with the Rythmik's built-in PEQ filter. I digitally apply a convolution filter to mildly reduce some bass nodes/humps and boost the treble slightly. For 5.1 movies, I run all speakers set to small, crossed at 80hz, and send the bass below 80hz, along with the LFE channel, to the sub which is also crossed at 80/24. Not sure what effect have both crossovers on the AVR and sub have, but it sounds good. I leave it this way because I'm mostly 2-channel. If you are doing mostly 5.1, then you can set the Rythmik's crossover to AVR/12 and turn the crossover knob as high as it will go because the AVR will handle all the crossover duties. I have a really old AVR so I don't have a lot of options or any sort of built-in room correction. If Audyssey tells you to cross them at 60hz, that doesn't sound unreasonable. In general, I would apply the mildest, least-aggressive room correction first, just to get you in the right ballpark, then manually (gently) tweak it to your liking. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 I would try several XO since you are using subs. Eighty to 40 Hz is worth experimenting with. You don't know what effects the room are imparting on the measurement. The curve that will have the most impact on what you are hearing is Main + subs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elee532 Posted September 4, 2018 Author Share Posted September 4, 2018 17 hours ago, Maximus89 said: Swap the k33 for a k43 Pardon my ignorance, but what are these? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elee532 Posted September 4, 2018 Author Share Posted September 4, 2018 15 hours ago, Chris A said: ...add one negative PEQ at about 57 Hz of high "Q" (low bandwidth) to smooth that peak. Sorry, I’m not sure what this means. Can you say more? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windashine Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Fine 15" Klipsch Woofers, nice big speakers, usually followed with a letter indicating the details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 28 minutes ago, elee532 said: Sorry, I’m not sure what this means. Can you say more? Thanks! If Audyssey will not provide you with the ability to tailor its equalization settings in the bass bands, then I recommend using a parametric equalizer upstream of your preamplifier or in your music player (if it's a desktop/laptop computer, for instance) to replace the "bass management" of Audyssey with a simple attenuating filter set at about 57 Hz and with a bandwidth of about 0.2 octave. That will give you back your bass response that Audyssey seems to have taken away. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornukopia Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 22 hours ago, Maximus89 said: Swap the k33 for a k43 4 hours ago, elee532 said: Pardon my ignorance, but what are these? Thanks! The K-33 is the 15" woofer in your La Scala II. The K-43 is the 15" woofer with higher power handling and slightly different frequency response, that was in the Industrial La Scala and some other Pro Klipsch speakers. Swapping out woofers may be a fun project for some of us, but might be more than you need to adjust your system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 21 hours ago, Maximus89 said: people including me noticed a really beefy lower mid range if I’m saying that correctly. I liked it a lot I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elee532 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 11:32 AM, Khornukopia said: Swapping out woofers may be a fun project for some of us, but might be more than you need to adjust your system. I do like a good DIY project. This might be the perfect project in a year or two when the next upgrade~itis bug bites. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elee532 Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 Is there a primer on “EQ for dummies” somewhere? So many things I don’t understand... negative PEQ, high Q, PEQ, 80/24, AVR/12, convolution filter, BBC dip, attenuating filter, .2 octave,, etc. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Here is one (though certainly not comprehensive): http://blog.dubspot.com/audio-equalizer-guide/ And another one that's aimed at mixing/mastering applications. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 An explanation of the BBC Dip: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/34354-bbc-dip.html#post397088 and a somewhat rambling and less-than-focused discussion of this phenomenon (which misses the mismatch of polar coverages at the crossover point): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The phrase "80/24" is (I believe) 80 Hz crossover point from the main loudspeakers to the subwoofer, and the "24" looks to be a crossover filter slope of 24 dB/octave on both the front loudspeakers and the subwoofer channels. The term "convolution filter" is a bit more complicated. Just regard it as a type of digital crossover filter that compensates for some peaks and valleys in the bass band. An attenuating filter reduces the output level of the input signal in a certain range of frequencies. A boosting filter increases the amplitude of a range of frequencies. The term AVR/12 is apparently a term used by some AV receiver manufacturer to denote a crossover filter with 12 dB/octave slopes, and that the crossover filter in built into an AVR instead of a passive or DSP (active) crossover filter set. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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