Schu Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 It's my choice to use whatever parts I want... frankly, I don't really get the incessant need to try and reduce, to the ABSOLUTE minimum, the investment needed to accomplish a task. No one likes to overpay for a thing, but that is not necessarily the same as someone who is trying to constantly reduce the capital in order to acheive a purely SUBJECTIVE goal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark51 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 I replaced the caps in the Forte's and it turned out to be worthwhile. Fortes are now clearer with more focus. I did not buy expensive caps. I spent a total of $10 for both speakers and ordered from Digikey. The films caps are by Illinois. They cost a couple dollars each. I'm sure more expensive caps would sound different. Photo shows examples of the film and electrolytic caps I removed. They don't appear to be anything exotic. For size comparison I included a couple of new manufacture NP electrolytic caps of about the same value of the cap removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Mark51: Right and good! And what Bruce said, and the substance of what wdecho said. I was building speakers and crossovers more than 10 years before I joined this forum in 2002 -- and then also took a badly needed long break. Things got really nasty here..... I am able to afford whatever capacitor brand available; I know about all of them, and have used and experimented with most of them. In either frequency dividing networks, interstage coupling in line and output amplifiers, bypass positions, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc!!! The cost of a condenser (aka capacitor) does not make it sonically superior -- unless the user in question, in his/her own listening space and with his/her associated equipment - judges it to be better. BEING ABLE TO HEAR A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BRANDS AND TYPES IS NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS WHETHER THE DIFFERENCE IS ONE THAT TO THE PERSON IN QUESTION (not the builder of the network, unless, as was my case, the person in question and the builder are one and the same) PERCEIVES THE DIFFERENCE TO BE BETTER (OR POSSIBLY WORSE) without respect to cost, construction, or anything else. Beyond that, another question remaining has to do with the fact that the difference, even if thought to be for the better, still may not justify the often exponentially greater cost. BUT! If ANY difference or change for the better is worth the price of admission (whatever it happens to be), it is most certainly someone's right to spend his or her money as they so choose (As Schu stated above). As Mark51perceptively and independently discovered, good results CAN be obtained with a minimal investment. I have also replaced a $60 film cap for an NP electrolytic (because I'm a fool and an idiot who doesn't know better?) No, because I COULD tell a difference and preferred the NP electrolytic -- likely because it DID have slightly higher measurable ESR than the expensive film cap, and thus seemed to mildly attenuate what I perceived to be a peaky, somewhat grainy HF driver. Done, end of story. I don't obsess over capacitors -- circuits and design interest me much more. So many designers I have read and followed, and who have published project articles along with schematics, almost invariably ask that interested builders stick to the values of L,C,and R shown on the schematic, but to "season-to-taste" with preferred cap and resistor types and brands. PS: My all-caps (not a pun!) in the sentence above is not intended as shouting; please don't take it that way. It's because it's the same statement I've made here for 16 years. Anyone who knows anything about audio electronics knows that what really matters most about these pesky passive components, is that it's not the type or brand -- but the color of final, decorative, outer wrap. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark51 Posted October 12, 2018 Author Share Posted October 12, 2018 erik2a3 my experience mirrors yours. I have been an audiophile and electronics dabbler both professionally and as a hobby for about 40 years. I have built several tube amps from scratch and modded other gear by trying different capacitors. I've learned not to obsess over capacitors and other tweeks. Its just too time consuming and can get expensive. I'm retired now and don't have the money and energy for it anymore. I don't have the money for expensive interconnects and speaker wire either. I've found that solid core 18 AWG doorbell wire for interconnects and solid core 14 AWG wire for speakers works good enough. I can hear a clear difference between stranded wire and solid core and different AWG sizes. I also made a coax cable using 30 AWG enameled and found that it sounds better than the cheap Amazon coax cable I had for connecting my DVD player to the DAC. Thinner wire seems to sound he best for that application. I'm using a battery powered $35 Google Chromecast Audio for Tidal and Pandora and it sounds great. You can spend a lot of money if you want to but don't have to, to have great sound, if you have some idea of what you are doing. And its a lot of fun still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I've been around for many of the capacitor wars. I spent a small fortune on caps and crossovers over the last 15 years. Couple of things I noticed. 1) The quality of low priced capacitors (that we would use in crossovers) has gotten WAY better. New brands, better products, much better sounding. You can't just generally say low cost caps suck anymore like you could 10 years ago. 10 years ago these selections weren't there. Back then, the "cheap" caps really were not very good sounding. 2) Now they make caps that purposely alter the sound in certain ways............like with cables. Tune your system with caps now.........and PAY for it. Just don't ever change your amp, preamp, and cables anymore. Ut oh. 3) Active crossovers are your friend. All this BS goes away and the new headache is purchasing many amplifiers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 3 hours ago, mark1101 said: I've been around for many of the capacitor wars. I spent a small fortune on caps and crossovers over the last 15 years. Couple of things I noticed. 1) The quality of low priced capacitors (that we would use in crossovers) has gotten WAY better. New brands, better products, much better sounding. You can't just generally say low cost caps suck anymore like you could 10 years ago. 10 years ago these selections weren't there. Back then, the "cheap" caps really were not very good sounding. 2) Now they make caps that purposely alter the sound in certain ways............like with cables. Tune your system with caps now.........and PAY for it. Just don't ever change your amp, preamp, and cables anymore. Ut oh. 3) Active crossovers are your friend. All this BS goes away and the new headache is purchasing many amplifiers. Good thread guys. Can we now discuss speaker wire? Or maybe IC's..... tc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 You are begging for trouble with either of those topics. I'll make that one easy for you. 75% here would say there is ZERO difference between aluminum foil as speaker wire and a 100k pair of cables. Interconnects, I'm sure the same would be said. I fall into the other 25% but look for bang for the buck and performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Everything that is around now, was around 10 years ago. I tacked together some AA’s with the Dayton’s - it sounded good - but not as good as with film and foils. Pretty noticeable. Low cost capacitors don’t “suck”, but they are what they are. They cost a buck fifty for a reason. Yes, they will sound better than a capacitor that’s EOL. This is not a surprise. Help me understand the logic of deliberately building in a weak link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 13, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2018 27 minutes ago, Deang said: Everything that is around now, was around 10 years ago. I tacked together some AA’s with the Dayton’s - it sounded good - but not as good as with film and foils. Pretty noticeable. Low cost capacitors don’t “suck”, but they are what they are. They cost a buck fifty for a reason. Yes, they will sound better than a capacitor that’s EOL. This is not a surprise. Help me understand the logic of deliberately building in a weak link? EOL = End of life? Do manufacturers give any type of "life expectancy" on this stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Well, there’s math. I’m not going to pretend I completely understand it. https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/Life expectancy of film capacitors.pdf Calculators, but you need to know a lot about the product, including film thickness. https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculators.aspx Issues related to materials and construction. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1607.01540.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 14 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said: You are begging for trouble with either of those topics. I'll make that one easy for you. 75% here would say there is ZERO difference between aluminum foil as speaker wire and a 100k pair of cables. Interconnects, I'm sure the same would be said. I fall into the other 25% but look for bang for the buck and performance. I use old coat hangers myself............ tc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Coat hangers 👍 Sounds about right. I have heard the argument both ways many times. I tried for myself and settled on results that my ears were content with for reasonable money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 13, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2018 1 hour ago, IB Slammin said: I use old coat hangers myself............ tc Coat hanger tested and compared https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Lol! Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windashine Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Frankly, I'm satisfied with the power cords supplied with receivers, and would never imagine going beyond standard issue's... but they exist in the market... I mean, Romex cable's run all thru every house ever built, why not just extend it another 3 or 4 feet from the wall outlet if you have to ??? Nevertheless, please accept this post as a viewpoint relative to electrical components which work well, work correctly as measured, or are affordable within your mean's on an available budget.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Comparing power cords to capacitors doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windashine Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 I know, but it would of been redundant to type speaker wire things again, in a capacitor topic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik2A3 Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Oh C'mon Dean, Let's do autoformers again...for old time sake... the Wild West forum saloon days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 14, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2018 3 hours ago, windashine said: Frankly, I'm satisfied with the power cords supplied with receivers, and would never imagine going beyond standard issue's... but they exist in the market... I mean, Romex cable's run all thru every house ever built, why not just extend it another 3 or 4 feet from the wall outlet if you have to ??? Nevertheless, please accept this post as a viewpoint relative to electrical components which work well, work correctly as measured, or are affordable within your mean's on an available budget.... How much did those ceramic risers set you back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 It's not the riser cost I would be worried about, it would be the refinance on the house to pay for the speaker cables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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