Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 39 minutes ago, Jeff Matthews said: Not the oppression part. Trade actions can be a solution. They sure can be. But not when you are lopsided by over 300 billion, AND they own a chunk of your debt. How do you make Taiwan safe from invasion thus removing their Trump card, and get China to the table in a serious way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: How do you make Taiwan safe from invasion thus removing their Trump card, Once again, enlighten us on the importance of little Taiwan today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, oldtimer said: So why worry about Taiwan? because we have an agreement going back to a failed would be despot in order to foil the actual despots? BTW, 20th? China? No. Look who is not in the top 20. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/ China is 2. Taiwan it 23, so I embellished, Top 20 in GDP per capita. It isn't Grenada or Cuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 What else isn't it? Defending them used to be our trump card, but we have been bought off. It's not Mexico, for example. It's not France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 What is it? Another example of why it is stupid to back a douchebag just because you fear the other douchebag more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, oldtimer said: Once again, enlighten us on the importance of little Taiwan today. It isn't me. I could care less about them. I just sit and look how everyone runs around in a scurry, our leaders and all of our allies, when Taiwan even remotely comes into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, oldtimer said: What else isn't it? Defending them used to be our trump card, but we have been bought off. It's not Mexico, for example. It's not France. Arm them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 They couldn't possibly use their own money to arm themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 of course everyone knows that as soon as they arm themselves the commies come in claiming self defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 2 hours ago, dwilawyer said: It's a fine line Dr. Dr. but let's see if we can have this conversation about human rights in China without getting into politics, specifically the Chief Executive. Over he last several days there have been a number of announcements about how bad countries were, like Canada, until a trade deal got signed, now they are our best friend again. I don't think we need to get involved in politics to discuss Jeff's issues, From me, "Trump" is simple 5-letter shorthand for the Administration, which has many participating actors, both culpable and saving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 34 minutes ago, oldtimer said: So why worry about Taiwan? because we have an agreement going back to a failed would be despot in order to foil the actual despots? BTW, 20th? China? No. Look who is not in the top 20. https://www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/ I said China, sorry for confusion, I meant Taiwan. Taiwan is 23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, LarryC said: From me, "Trump" is simple 5-letter shorthand for the Administration, which has many participating actors, both culpable and saving. I know Dr., but if you say that word people think it gives them license to talk anything and everything political and it ends up in a good thread being shot down. Nothing happens short term with China so it wouldn't even be accurate to blame diplomacy with China on what is happened over last 5 to 10 years anyway. Maybe people can meet me half way and say "our State Department" is doing this or that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 43 minutes ago, oldtimer said: They couldn't possibly use their own money to arm themselves? The issue isn't whether we give them arms, the issue is whether we would even consider selling them arms. They did spend their own money, 2 BILLION dollar deal with USA (not sure which companies got the contracts). This was a major shift. Am I the only one who remembers the Arms Deal? China said if we did that deal they would be pissed and it would hurt relations . We did it anyway. I am not commenting on whether that was the right or wrong thing to do. There are obvious pros and cons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 8, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 8, 2018 48 minutes ago, oldtimer said: What is it? Another example of why it is stupid to back a douchebag just because you fear the other douchebag more? Well the opposite lesson is at play here. We had the DB from 49 to 70 ish. We worked with them, now they are most democratic countries, free press, real elections. So that is today. Do you pull plug and have them form alliances with China and North Korea? They will form alliances, that is what rich island nations do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Personally, I don't pull the plug, because it is still as much our deterrent to them as it ever was. Their "rethink" doesn't change that. There has to be a line somewhere, and there is where it has been drawn. I only ask questions to see if there is something I am missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosco-d-gama Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 Have a close friend who just retired from d.o.d. work. He relates that China is less of an immediate military threat because their culture is ancient and patient. They are willing to wait for long term goals unless imminently under direct threat. China sees more peril from Russia as it is less predictable and more proximal and shares similar tactical geographies. Per my friend Iran stands to be a greater destabilizing entity due to its intransigent religious zealotry and because historically its leadership is more ephemeral. Iran has relatively recently demonstrated its willingness for warfare and acceptance of massive losses. China aims to be around forever and knows any serious conflict with the west would be catastrophic to all of their goals. What we see with China is saber rattling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 49 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: Maybe people can meet me half way and say "our State Department" is doing this or that. Our State Department's budget is being cut by over 30% at a time we need to be funding it more. Research how many people have left and realize when you purposefully cut the budget and kick out experienced Diplomats we are going in the wrong direction--THAT is what Foreign Policy experts have been saying from every administration, Republican or Democrat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 === a bit more insight from someone well veresed in the subject - The Chinese Communist Party emphasized its expanding global ambitions in a remarkable 5,500 character treatise on the front page of Monday's "People's Daily." "The world needs China, as all humans are living in a community with a shared future ... That creates broad strategic room for our efforts to uphold peace and development and gain an advantage.” — Communist Party "manifesto" on China's role in the world Why it matters: This is further evidence of the seriousness of China's broad global vision. President Xi Jinping sees a remarkable opportunity, enhanced by the Trump presidency and its “America First” policies, to reshape the global order in ways that legitimize the Chinese political system and create more strategic advantages for the China. Show less The Xi Era and its growing global ambition was ushered in during the 19th Chinese Communist Party Congress last fall, where Xi vowed to increase China’s global influence and reshape global governance. As Xi said in his report to the Congress: “It will be an era that sees China moving closer to center stage and making greater contributions to mankind.” This week's article — called 紧紧抓住大有可为的历史机遇期 or "Tightly grasping the very promising period of historical opportunity" and signed by the pseudonym “Xuanyan 宣言," which means manifesto — called for the nation to grasp the historic opportunity now before the nation, according to state-run media. Noting the problems facing the world, such as a "democratic deficit," "governance deficit," "development trap," wealth gap, terrorism and climate change, the article said "the drawbacks of capitalism-led political and economic systems are emerging; the global governance system is experiencing profound changes and a new international order is taking shape.” Under the headline "Make China Great Again," the South China Morning Post quoted the manifesto calling out the "drawbacks" of the the capitalist economic system and said "a new international order is taking shape," with China facing an historic opportunity to "restore itself to greatness and return to its rightful position in the world." Be smart: China is not getting back into the business of exporting revolution as it did in the Mao-Era, and China's style of Leninist-Mercantilism is unlikely to fit other countries. But Xi and the Communist Party's Marxist theoreticians who believe in “historical determinism”, a phrase that appears repeatedly in the manifesto, see America's retreat as a moment to increase China's influence in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted October 9, 2018 Moderators Share Posted October 9, 2018 47 minutes ago, oldtimer said: Personally, I don't pull the plug, because it is still as much our deterrent to them as it ever was. Their "rethink" doesn't change that. There has to be a line somewhere, and there is where it has been drawn. I only ask questions to see if there is something I am missing. So Taiwan is a key player? I think questions are a great thing, but I dont jave the answers, I read two books by two leading experts, and all of the articles in foreign policy magazines, so I understand (some of) the issues and "it's complicated" and goes back to '49 and then '72. Anyone who thinks what is happening today is the result of the last 24 months is deeply mistaken. These agreements, understandings, and commitments don't renew every 24 months like a cable or cell phone bill. That is typically the case with foreign policy, things take many years to develop, and are measured by a few defining moments which turn out to be opportunities or failures to be judged by hindsight. The decision to back Chiang Kai-shek initially, his death, the decision to go along with a one-china policy after the UN replaced Taiwan with mainland China (which the US opposed), etc. Each was a crossroads, and each of those decisions influence where we are today. Now what to do about it? Continue selling them arms? Sever ties. Start a trade war continue with one? How hard should we stick to human rights when it comes to trade? Protection of patents and trademarks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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