La Scala crossover upgrades-ALK network-bass driver

[HDBRbuilder]

I guess Randy thinks I am gonna make a profit of some kind off the three pairs of oak LaScalas I have built, huh? Randy...are you some kinda lunatic or something? All I did was to build three extra pairs of LaScalas, and offer them up to board members at MUCH less than they are actually WORTH...and at a LOSS to me!! So...shove it where the sun don't shine, ok????? And...maybe you can try to offer up something besides SARCASM...think that is possible? Have a wonderful evening!!

[Guy Landau]

I don't think that running a crusade against Al is nice nor fair.I do like the type A crossover more than the ALK but I have bought the ALK and lived with it and was satisfied from its performance,for more than 2 years.

I have discovered the benefits of the 1st order network by experimenting and Al has always answered questions,tried to be helpfull and open to new things(even when things should have been against his interest)he even designed a 6db network and published the schematics and parts list for free-

I call that an open minded person with big and warm heart so I guess that we need'nt judge him or anyone else for that matter any more.

[Tom Mobley]

Looks to me like it's getting more and more obvious that Randy has some axe-grinding deal going here. Give it up, there's nothing there. Al helped me to build his networks when I didn't buy a single thing from him. Even I with my damaged ears can plainly hear that Al's nets sound better than the stock AA's. Schematic, plans, layouts, pictures and parts list with vendor info, help when I had trouble, etc. The suggestion that he's on here pushing his parts is laughable, IMO.

And Randy, what have you donated to the community here? Such a nice little pic of Frank Zappa and small-minded criticism of somebody who is actually doing something positive? Thanks but no thanks, I'll pass on that.

My 5 year old son came in and wanted to sit on my lap while I was reading the forum the other day, great, we don't see a lot of each other during my work week. He's observant, guess what is the first thing he spots and wants to know all about? Better yet, guess how you turned out in the ensuing explanation about the picture of the guy sitting on the toilet? Any trouble figuring out where the WAF is on that?

Tom

[tubelion]

Many people own K-horn, Belle, LS here and find the need to upgrade, why shouldn't. But which direction to go? Especially for owners like me using tube amp.,likely SET to drive these horns, the protection is not needed.

I just always wonder why few experiment was done on a fair basis which is different design using similar quality of parts.

I am tired of people saying ALK with such better parts is actually a superior design than original early type A by PWK, yet not considering such a simple logic.Unfortunately that is the fact I found so far in my search.

To make my thought simple, spend 200 or less counting less number of parts for the Type A, and have a fair comparison.

The above argument by people here is not to the point, and would misdirect the future owners who wants to upgrade, I am one of them. It is a big issue.

Let's find it out.

tubelion

[Erik Mandaville]

I must admit that I was glad to find that the ALK networks were being made and were available to the public for purchase. Moreover, it is an absolute asset and benefit to this forum that Al K. frequents this site to share his knowledge and thoughts on this important topic. Granted, it took a couple of days to connect the designer/builder with the product (what can I say -- I'm a ditz sometimes!), but that discovery was one to be thankful for (ok....for which to be thankful!) I had seen the ALK networks in the pages of Audio Express a few times, and thought it was great that someone had been putting considerable time and effort into upgrading a key element of the Heritage line of speakers. This was even before I bought the La Scalas.

Al uses among THE best passive components available, which no doubt contribute in a large way to the way they 'sound.' And this of course is reflected in the price he is asking. I'd buy a pair in an instant if I could, and have them on my list for sometime in the not-too-distant future. The holidays are getting close, and we have some other more pending financial needs right now. I've built other speaker systems in the past using most of the brands of parts Al uses in his -- and they DO make a difference! The coils and Hovland capacitors surely contribute to the cost.

This post is already getting too long, but I just have to say this:

At no time did I EVER feel Al was leading me into a purchase, nor did he ever fling a sales pitch. On the contrary! He was nice enough to provide me with contact information and part numbers for some of the parts in the network that needed to be special-ordered. Lets think of his presence as a positive, rather than a negative! There is not a large population of audio designers and engineers who make themselves and the fruits of their labor so available to the lay person. Since I enjoy building my own amps and preamps, there have been times where I had written to a certain designer, asking if they might possibly share some technical information about his/her product, and had been politely, but flatly denied. I understand the concern some may have regarding the use of forums as marketing devices, but I in no way see Al as belonging to or advocating such a scheme. Mr. Hornbuilder is another one of these that we are fortunate to have as a companion here. He's not going to the bank everyday with gigantic deposits from building nice looking cabinets for a couple of friends.

Erik

[Al Klappenberger]

EVERYBODY, INCLUDING the legal team at Klipsch...

I have been thinking very hard about the point of what determines using the

forum as a sales tool and I can see Randy's point of view. You could call it a

form of the forum policing itself rather then the Klipsch webmaster dictating

rules about what topic is discussed and by who (whom?). His opinion on this

point is healthy and justified even if he turns out to be wrong in the final

analysis.

I have been reviewing a very old thread under "Ods and Mods" when I was just

starting to build networks for other people for a price. Some of it clearly

sounds like my sample blatent "plug" from my last post!

This is a gray area and I do believe the Klipsch management COULD be the judge

about this if they wanted to be or saw the need to be. Randy pointed out that

other forums forbid sales pitches. Klipsch has not said anything at all about

it.

Here are some case studies that should be considered discussed:

PLEASE NOTE: All this is hypothetical and has NOT happened!

--------------------------------

Case 1:

Keep in mind that Klipsch has already said that they don't mind items for sale

being posted. A post on the forum reads:

For sale: A set of GENUINE USED ALK type "A" crossover networks for Klipschorn.

The post is by Guy Landou. He doesn't like them and wants to get most of his

money back to build a set of Klipsch type "A" networks. Who is harmed by that

post? I say nobody is harmed. I don't think there's a doubt about this.

Now assume the post is by ME and that I bought them back from Guy for $300 and

want to resell them for $400. Who is harmed now? The same identical post. It

becomes a gray area because I have built over 100 set of them to date and am

doing it to make $100. Suppose I only built a single set and no more and the

word "GENUINE" was not there. Nobody would even know what I was selling!

Suppose the post was by a friend of mine who I secretly am giving a 20% cut to

sell them for me?

-----------------------------

Case 2:

This post appears on the forum:

For sale: A set of ALK type "A" crossovers for sale.

The post is by Randy Bey. Everybody knows HE built them and they were built with

the poorest quality parts available. By his own admission they sound BAD!

Now assume the post is by "Joe Tech" who everybody knows can build anything from

a screen doors to a submarines and does beautiful work with only the best parts.

Who is harmed?

Next assumption: The post is by "John Smith". Nobody has ever heard of him. It

is his first post to the forum. Who is harmed now? Should I come in a say, yes,

he as serial number ___ and they were built by me? Is that sales? Who is harmed?

Should I post the statement that these are NOT mine, BEWARE! Is it my business

or my place to do that? Is it a service to the forum to do that or is it sales?

---------------------------

Case 3:

The post reads:

I am ready and willing to build a set of beautiful solid oak La Scalas for

$2000. Get your orders in NOW!

The post is by HDBRBuilder who everybody knows has worked for Klipsch and knows

what he is doing. The $2000 is far less than a set of Birch La Scalas from

Klipsch. He is undercutting Klipsch's price and will be taking business from

them. Obviously Klipsch is harmed. Suppose his price is $10,000. A customer will

say either WOW, for oak I will pay any price, or he will say that's too much and

then buy a birch set for Klipsch. Who is hurt now? The price determines who is

harmed.

Suppose the post is again from Randy Bey? Does he know anything about woodwork?

I don't know? Do you? Maybe he is a superb cabinet maker! That changes the

picture again? Would the price matter if he was the guy building them? Is this

sales?

Consider that "Builder" is making them from oak wood. Klipsch does not. If you

really wanted a set of oak La Scalas and didn't know about this forum what would

you do? You would call Klipsch and ask. The answer would be no. You would then

have to go to a lot of trouble to get the plans and find a local cabinet shop to

build them for you. The forum member will know right off where he can get a set

of oak La Scalas. Is this sales or a service? Is Klipsch harmed here? Should he

refrain from doing that?

-----------------------------

Here's another thought:

Is this forum ITSELF a sales tool for Klipsch or is it a service to the world

that Klipsch does not benefit from in any way?

Discussion is invited!

Al K.

[Randy Bey]

Al, like I say, you are a good guy. You do have a conscious, and I am probably on your sh*tlist right about now. Nothing personal, I hope you understand. This forum may not be about how to sell ALK crossovers, but it also may not be about how Randy likes to see forums run, either.

The other forum I mentioned in passing has people assigned to monitor and adjust forum content. Lacking that here, if we are self-policing we could reach that level voluntarily, if we choose.

Here is an excerpt from AA's vendor rules list:

1. All members of the trade must register and create an inmate profile that identifies them as such and identifies the specific business in which they are engaged. Posts that appear to be from members of the trade that are not linked to a profile will be deleted.

2. No member of the trade shall use his/her business name, postal address, e-mail address, telephone number or URL as part of his/her moniker or as part of any post, except as permitted in rule no. 5. This Rule includes magazine and e-zine writers and editors. Trade members may use the "i" link to make this information available and may use their company email addresses for registration, but must use a different moniker/username than the default email address for their posts.

3. A member of the trade may not volunteer any information about a specific product that he is selling or making, in response to a general request for information about a type of product or in any other discussion.

4. A trade member may not post announcements, advertisements, sales information or the like about a product he makes or sells.

5. A member of the trade who posts for the purpose of supplying specifically requested information about his/her product or to correct mis-information about his/her product appearing in another post may but is not required to include his/her company identifying information in the body of the post.

Regarding the trial of your crossover, and your continued aspersions regarding the parts quality and construction of my own efforts, I disagree completely. I did not use poor parts, nor did I misread your schematics. And the difference was profound, profoundly bad, otherwise I would (I too have a conscious) doubt the validity of a test for whatever reasons. I think it's probably closer to true that others are swept into the 'I spent $500 on these, they must improve the sound' mentality. I fall prey to this mentality periodically myself. This is why I would insist on a long listening period, of several weeks, to determine the value of these changes.

But again, I am biased, and this comparison would be unfair to you. This is why I thought the MH review would be an acceptable compromise. I don't accept your statement that you are worried that MH won't send them back or forget to pay for them. He has made this request public in a public forum, and it would not be worth his while to abscond with your crossovers.

For that matter, I question the validity of technical comparisons of your design v. any other. Being a microwave technician might impart audio quality insight, but then again, it might not.

I do know that you make money on this (this is not a sin, I am not against making a living) and consequently your energy to pursue this matter will be infinitely higher than mine. Perhaps your intention then is to rally against me and make it unpleasant for me to offer my opinion here. You certainly spend much more time posting here than I do.

Oh, I also predicted the negative responses of other forum members. Going against the grain is not a populist position. I would wish they keep the mudslinging parts of their retorts to a decent minimum.

In the end, I think I object most to the concept that people new to this forum come here and are immediately presented with the strong opinion that the ALK is an upgrade to their existing speakers. I would agree that it is a change but upgrade is not a forgone conclusion.

[Parrot]

Audio Asylum is different than the Klipsch forum. Audio Asylum is privately owned. It is paid for by donations of readers and by manufacturers. I don't know how much the manufacturers pay because I am not a manufacturer. But the point is, if one manufacturer pays as a sponsor and another sneaks in ads, that's going to anger the manufacturers who pay. It is not that the AA is against sellers--it just wants them to help pay for expenses of running the site.

Klipsch, it would seem, likes to have a free flow of info, even when someone posts "I hate Klipsch and only listen to Bose." But they probably wouldn't let Bose run free ads every day either.

[Al Klappenberger]

Everybody,

I think the AA rules quoted above are very harsh and are were designed

to keep vendors completely out. Under those rules, I would have to leave! The

fact that Klipsch has NOT spelled out any rules at all, let along ones that

harsh, means that they must believe that what I am doing is acceptable. I

certainly have been here long enough for them to notice me. I also believe that

no matter how I conduct myself here, I will be criticized by somebody. The fact

is that the extremes define the means in all things. I have to accept that.

Everyone here is just going to have to accept that I am here to help anyone I

can in areas where I feel qualified to do so and that I do NOT have network

sales as a hidden motive. This will be in the area of passive electronic

filters, that is, crossover networks. I have put the crossover design that I

build and sell on my web site so that anyone who wants to can duplicate it. How

many other "vendors" have done that? With that in mind, I will continue to help

anyone who has questions involving building my network design or those wishing

to midify or better understand those by Klipsch. I will also be open to any

suggestions to improve or better apply my design no matter who built it assuming

they built them to MY SPECIFICATIONS. HOWEVER, I will not accept criticism from

unqualified people about them and will defend the design for the sake of others

who might want to build or buy them. I will continue this way until such time as

I hear from Klipsch that my conduct here is not acceptable. They have the final

word on the matter.

Randy,

You are NOT qualified to tell anybody the quality of the parts that you have

used in building my network. However I AM! I tell you that the parts you used to

build my design where as low as I have seen available and they were built from

an early layout that is no longer valid and done very poorly besides. They do

not represent my design in any way and are not acceptable for evaluation. I

challenge you to post the photographs of what you built on this forum for all to

see. If you no longer have the pictures you sent me, I do and will email them

back to you.

Al K.

[TBrennan]

I love it when Al gets all torqued up. He evidently expects everyone here to be his syncophants, God knows he has enough obsequious fans already. Pretty good for a crossover designer that didn't know that driver impedence changes with frequency when he started making them. Al has learned alot though, haven't you Al?

[Parrot]

Don't be such a jerk, Tom. Are you jealous or just having a bad day in general?

[Al Klappenberger]

Tom IS a jerk. What's more I'll bet he doesn't even know what impedance is let alone how it changes with frequency! I am beginning to get very fed up with incompetant people tell me what I know and don't know.

What amazes me is how Klipsch allows this kind of sillyness to flurish on their forum!

Al K.

[Radiohead]

I may not be qualified enough to chime in here with my "Cool Newbie" ranking; but, I for one don't think you should go anywhere Al. I don't post much, but I read quite often, and these past few months I feel that I have learned a great deal from people like Al, MH, and HDBRbuilder. IMO the 2-channel board just wouldn't be the same without them. I for one think you should take Al's challenge Randy and report back to us what you think. Who knows? You may find out you really do like them and that all this banter was a waste of time and energy. Then again you may not like them at all, but I would still enjoy hearing your opinion on them. No matter what happens may I suggest some green or ceylon tea along with some Qigong. These two things do a great deal to help me battle stress.

Oh, one other thing, I missed the oak La Scalas for sale. Did you sell them all HDBRbuilder? If not, what are you asking for them? I would have private messaged this to you but I can't figure out if that option is still available with the new BB setup.

[TBrennan]

Al---Sure I know what impedence is and I know that it changes with frequency, evidently long before you did. I know Al and you know I know. I gave you credit for learning didn't I?

As for sillyness being allowed to flourish on this forum, well there's alot sillier things than criticizing you though you may not think so. If you can't take the heat.....

[TBrennan]

Paul---Having a bad day in general.

[Al Klappenberger]

Brennan, go blow your horns. I am tired of swallowing stupid remarks from insensitive clods like you. You were the FIRST one to tell me I was using this forum to sell networks. You say you know what impedance is, I say you DON'T! I will challange you to tell us what it is. Go look it up. We all could use some more education or maybe a good laugh. You better show us some vector analysis too. If you can't, I CAN!

Al K.

[Erik Mandaville]

Alright....

I am not the moderator of this forum, and don't pretend to have any authority of any kind. But as the originator of this thread, I extend an apology for bringing into question an issue that has begun to cause such fricton between some members of this forum.

Erik

[jazman]

Erik,

Please, no apology. Sit back and enjoy. One of the things I enjoy about this 2 Channel Forum is the free and sometimes far flung posts that appear. Even among the best friends, face to face, debate can be lively, not necessarily all factual, but such is freedom of speech. Sometimes, even some additional knowledge and information is presented. An additional feature,...it is impossible to come to blows. I see it as just another family squabble. Ok guys, no fingers in the eyes, scratching.........

Klipsch out.

[Invidiosulus]

I have heard the so called ALK replacement and the stock AA crossovers but not for any extended length of time.

At the time I could tell they were different but I did not have enough time to formulate an opinion as to which one I liked better.

I play electric guitar and bass.

The Fender Jazz bass and Telecaster which I love are despised by some of my friends, but we agree to disagree due to the fact that tone is a very subjective thing.

Tone is a four letter word but it doesn't have to be bad.

Peace, Josh

[Erik Mandaville]

Jazman:

That may be the best advice I've gotten out of this (first 'thread') now 'tapestry.' Thanks for passing on a more positive outlook on this subject.

I guess, as is usual in audio, whether or not a modification (of whatever part or component)can be considered an 'upgrade' or and improvement depends on who one asks. Overall, I've gathered that some substitution of the original crossover parts (for truly higher quality)could be in order for my vintage 1989 La Scalas -- which I have to say sound very good as they are.

Anyway, I appreciate your post, thanks for responding.

Erik