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Allhartfidelity

Cornwall IV decision? New VS. Orig

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25 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Time and money was not a big deal. The Quest for superior audio quality continues, but I'm almost there now.

I heard that the Holy Grail was to be sought but never to be found.

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21 hours ago, Allhartfidelity said:

 I've got a sneaking suspicion that since Klipsch themselves is here in this forum, and so is the builders of our boutique stuff, that what in the new CW is a combination of BOTH works.  Of one thing I can be certain without hearing the CW4

 I would likely prefer them hands down over my current model 1. Because, I know for a fact I prefer a 2' throat and tractrix design over the orig.  Still , it wont make it "better" than The CW 2 as it does exactly what it was designed to do. Sit between 2 widely spaced Khorns. 

   Accurate statement.

 

I don't believe they've been designed to do that for a long time. Each iteration has been designed to be Klipsch's best for the given size. And for sure the new one is better than the previous model... more even frequency response, better polars, lower distortion and better phase response.

 

While we can blah, blah, blah about incorporating the diy crowds innovations, they are , in fact, a totally engineered solution by Klipsch.

 

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On 11/12/2019 at 5:45 PM, jimjimbo said:

First of all, all things are NOT equal.  The Cornwall 1 and 2 don't even come close to the Cornwall 4, no matter how you update/upgrade/change components.   (Cornwall 3 is another story, and I am not a fan of that speaker).  And then, show me where a Cornwall 1 or 2 is selling for 50% or more of the price of a new CW4?  Asking prices are not the same as selling prices. (especially on the bay....)

I agree about the Cornwall sales prices. Ignoring the random timing component, and the ravages of inflation on the value of a dollar, during a sale/purchase for a moment: There are a few "steal this first" times where the price is less than used market value. That being said,  the statistically observable "fair price" is where an informed buyer purchases from an informed seller under a no pressure situation, which is rare.

 

As a non-typical "real world" example in my case. A friend of mine built his own Altec Valencia Clones about 45 years ago out of Walnut Veneer. As an Industrial Designer, he enhanced the appearance of the Altec Horn, and added an EV T-35 tweeter (K-77 equivalent). This, of course, is when Altec Components were readily available.

 

Having liked the sound of Bass Reflex, he came across a pair of Cornwalls with woofers in a garage sale, (for $25!!), that were ripped to shreds by unknown perpetrators of destruction. So he bought the WRONG parts express woofers and spend the entire time complaining about the lack of good midrange performance. So, I took those same "wrong replacement woofers" and designed a bass reflex SUB woofer for him,  that crosses at 100 Hz. to add to the Carver Amazing Platinum III's he purchased from me. I gave him $250 in trade for his now Wooferless Cornwalls. Since the basic box design and port optimization occurred over 60 years ago by one PWK, it was just a matter of finding the right replacement woofer that had a Neo Magnet and higher Xmax that would simulate well in that box. Leave the "STILL ACCEPTABLE" midrange K600 and K55 drivers alone, and add DaveA's Tweeters, and TA-DA, I have a Super Cornwall 1.0.

 

Yes, for the same price I could have built my own ported box, but this deal was perfect for me. So now I have Klipsch Side Channels that could be modified to a Super Cornwall 2.0 by going for a Larger Midrange Driver (2" throat), a lower crossover point for more Mid Detail and greater Dynamics, and DaveA's Larger MAHL/driver, but a more AGRESSIVE crossover modifications, and a whole lot more Sawdust. This "drop in" modification holds the record of really, really GOOD price to performance ratio, and the reason why I shared it here as an improvement in the Super Cornwall 1.0 thread. Now you know the evolution of the story.

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On 11/12/2019 at 5:45 PM, jimjimbo said:

The Cornwall 1 and 2 don't even come close to the Cornwall 4, no matter how you update/upgrade/change components. 

As a DIY guy with tools and experience (substituting summer outdoors for anechoic chamber), I would never say IMPOSSIBLE, but highly unlikely to happen. So I don't fully agree or disagree.

But if there's a will, there's a way. My best friend of over 4 decades spend months developing new speakers in his to-die-for workshop. As a retired high end home builder, with a degree in Architecture, he builds speakers that would rival $30,000 speakers I've seen and heard at Axpona. His house could be featured in any magazine as well. Of course his front end 2-channel setup is to die for also, so he definitely has State of the Art Sound. He brought me to a high end dealer in Ann Arbor to hear what 1.2 Million Dollars will buy you in Hi Fidelity, but he's rather build his own, whereas, I'm happy tweaking Klipsch and Klipsch derived sound with lower watts.

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I heard a set of them in Hope a few weeks ago in Roy's sound room. They were pretty remarkable and up until now I could care less about Cornwalls. The CW4 had none of that boomy box sound I so dislike and was very musical. They had the latest Heresy, Forte, La Scala and Cornwall there and my favorite by far was the CW4. If I remember right you have a CW of some sort and unless you did some serious mods to it up to and including cutting the motorboard for a better mid horn there is no way you could ever make the old stuff sound as good as this CW4.

 

  Everything was balanced appropriately to me and every component was well match to all the others. I saw two sets of two screws on the front which I assume means they have finally run braces front to back and it killed the boomy box completely. While the LS was more efficient the CW4 was far more musical than the LS for my tastes. I could be OK with a set of these as my daily listeners if space was an issue. Although I have to say all that pro gear you just got rid of would skunk these. You really have to stop making a career out of speaker of the week you know.

  Sadly it is MDF + veneer so no where near as durable as all that pro gear you gave up. What really are you looking for anyway?

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On 11/19/2019 at 8:12 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Perhaps, but since the "midrange is where we live," according to PWK, this where the new MIDRANGE HORN AND DRIVER, new tweeter, and tweaked up bass come into play. It's a HUGE refinement based on my experience with speaker design, and I can see where people would be impressed with the IV more than the rest.

Exactly. Which is why years ago many found the 2"throat in Lascala Belle ect so lovely in the years gone by I would imagine. As well as the multitude of threads from years past on puting the chorus mid in the Cornwall 1 and 2.  I'm glad Klipsch seems to pay attention to this forum and implement the ideas that were propagated here into the new designs.  

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Yes, we can blah blah blah alright. After all, that's certainly where the ideas are BORN. Certainly glad they are still around to implement those ideas and iron out the "mumps"

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On 11/19/2019 at 10:04 AM, ClaudeJ1 said:

In every crowd, one can find a hater, or troll. They reveal themselves sooner or later. Let's hope this is not the case here with AHF.

Not sure what or how that can be Claud. I've used your mods on my super Heresy and others. I'm entitled to think how I think. I'm allowed to call it like I see it and so are you.

 I've got stock Khorns, modified Belle, stock Cornwall, Shoer Heresy, and love and hated many Klipsch over 30 years.  Not sure what makes a troll,  or a hater, I like what I like and I will modify it to get there.

  I can see that without the DIY group here, there would be no CW4 at all. Its just a simple observation.  It's not hate or troll or anything else.

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On 11/22/2019 at 8:00 AM, Westcoastdrums said:

For now, just kicking the idea around.  Interested is all. They have my attention.  Wanted to get more info on them as they are quite new.   

I look forward to auditioning a pair. But is seems it cant happen until some years go by and they turn up locally.  I can wait.

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9 minutes ago, Allhartfidelity said:

I can see that without the DIY group here, there would be no CW4 at all. Its just a simple observation.  It's not hate or troll or anything else.

Thanks for clearing this up. It sounded different before in my particular mood that day. It's all good. I also agree with your basic premise of the "modder influence," which only has plausible deniability.

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7 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Thanks for clearing this up. It sounded different before in my particular mood that day. It's all good. I also agree with your basic premise of the "modder influence," which only has plausible deniability.

Plausible deniability that is does! And from what I've read here over the years, and witnessed via my limited personal interaction with select diy guys, they dont want credit anyway. They just want what I think PWK wanted? A clean accurate loudspeaker.  I dont get out much, and dont post much, so I may not word myself in a way that's fluid. 

    I simply felt and tried to relay that since it's clear to me the DIY group does influence, and Klipsch does pay attention, that from a sales perspective I thought it might be cool to see stock NEW models up against orig modified models. Either it would sway the diehard orig. Herritage owners over to new models, or just do nothing but tell me I'm not crazy for loving my own modded.

   What im learning is this passion on both sides seems to run REAL deep, and im coming to an understanding through this thread that modified (I dont say upgraded) Klipsch and Stock Klipsch shall remain independent of one another. 

  Clauden you and your posts through the years have been an inspiration and a guideline. 

 

  I mean no I'll intent to Klipsch, stock or DIY. I am simply trying to make my way through a host of choices avail.  I do like to mess with stuff which is a curse at times. 

   I've appriciated all the comments whether or not I agree or like. You've all been helpful.

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19 minutes ago, Allhartfidelity said:

 What im learning is this passion on both sides seems to run REAL deep, and im coming to an understanding through this thread that modified (I dont say upgraded) Klipsch and Stock Klipsch shall remain independent of one another. 

Only Klipsch Engineers can do product UPGRADES. What I do is strictly MODIFICATIONS, yes.

 

We both have the terminology accurate from that perspective. Either way, the goal is to improving the sound, whether real or perceived.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder either way!!

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"...without the DIY group here, there would be no CW4 at all"

 

I have no possible way of anything but surmising that that statement is likely as far out in left field as it can get.  I've only been a Klipsch fan for roughly one year, but I can readily see that they've been very busy over the last several years updating everything Heritage.  The Cornwall has to have been on their list ever since they brought it back with that wimpy mid horn.

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As for the DIY crowd(and I am one of them!)….but I have never heard of any of them doing the "voicing work" which went into the Heritage line as it currently stands today with the new Heresy IV and Cornwall IV, which are NOW identically voiced to the entire rest of the line...and that was the MAIN reason for that side-by-side comparison of them all in the Lab listening room a few weeks ago!...K-horn, LaScala, Forte, Cornwall, and Heresy are NOW all identically-voiced!!  Which really IS A VERY HUGE THING!, considering the differences that each of them has with the other speaker models in the now-current Heritage series! There are so many other options available due JUST TO THIS IDENTICAL VOICING, NOW!  Home theater applications, YOU NAME IT!

 

PLUS, it is a GREAT SALES TOOL...and smart salespersons should take SERIOUS note of this!  Roy out-did himself on this, for sure!!

 

And just WHO in the DIY crowd has been using TRACTRIX porting???  The Heritage line-up is a WHOLE NEW BALLGAME, NOW!

 

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2 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

As for the DIY crowd(and I am one of them!)….but I have never heard of any of them doing the "voicing work" which went into the Heritage line as it currently stands today with the new Heresy IV and Cornwall IV, which are NOW identically voiced to the entire rest of the line...and that was the MAIN reason for that side-by-side comparison of them all in the Lab listening room a few weeks ago!...K-horn, LaScala, Forte, Cornwall, and Heresy are NOW all identically-voiced!!  Which really IS A VERY HUGE THING!, considering the differences that each of them has with the other speaker models in the now-current Heritage series! There are so many other options available due JUST TO THIS IDENTICAL VOICING, NOW!  Home theater applications, YOU NAME IT!

 

PLUS, it is a GREAT SALES TOOL...and smart salespersons should take SERIOUS note of this!  Roy out-did himself on this, for sure!!

 

And just WHO in the DIY crowd has been using TRACTRIX porting???  The Heritage line-up is a WHOLE NEW BALLGAME, NOW!

 

Tractrix porting? No one I'm aware of. I've been keeping an eye out for sure. I've heard the port itself is some kind of ring add on. I look forward to actually seeing it, and hearing what it can do.

   The tractrix mid horn, and mumps though, that's been around a long time as I'm sure you know.

   I did read on the facebook Klipsch about the product demo of the New Heritage line, and I think if there that would have worth some airline miles to hear. I had no idea there was an identical voicing between the New Heritage though. Given the size of the horn in the Klipschorn/Lascala that sounds quite a feat for the Heresy.  Meaning similar tone but not output? 

  I dont really understand all the xover stuff, I just install what my wallet provides and see if I like it. Sounds like I might be pissing up a rope modifying my CW 1.  But, it's a bit less expensive, and they will voice well with my Belle.

  I'm leaving the Khorn stock accept the xover.

   Perhaps in time the New Heritage line will be complete. For now there seems to be only 1 missing from the new production.  Come to think of it, it's the only one without a version 2 even? The Belle?

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7 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

As for the DIY crowd(and I am one of them!)….but I have never heard of any of them doing the "voicing work" which went into the Heritage line as it currently stands today with the new Heresy IV and Cornwall IV, which are NOW identically voiced to the entire rest of the line...and that was the MAIN reason for that side-by-side comparison of them all in the Lab listening room a few weeks ago!...K-horn, LaScala, Forte, Cornwall, and Heresy are NOW all identically-voiced!!  Which really IS A VERY HUGE THING!, considering the differences that each of them has with the other speaker models in the now-current Heritage series! There are so many other options available due JUST TO THIS IDENTICAL VOICING, NOW!  Home theater applications, YOU NAME IT!

 

PLUS, it is a GREAT SALES TOOL...and smart salespersons should take SERIOUS note of this!  Roy out-did himself on this, for sure!!

 

And just WHO in the DIY crowd has been using TRACTRIX porting???  The Heritage line-up is a WHOLE NEW BALLGAME, NOW!

 

I agree with what you have said here. Some of us have an engineering background, but we have ZERO stake in the outcome of a design modification for the present and future Klipsch CUSTOMERS,  as do Roy and the rest of the design crew at Klipsch. This DIY thing stands  in stark contrast to a true UPGRADE in the lines, which has been long overdue by those responsible for improving it for the rest of the world to hear. As to your "Identically voiced" comment, that is subject of debate, but beyond the scope of this response. 

 

Other than being "legends in our own minds," the DIY types like us are just having fun with a worthwhile HOBBY. Even PWK claimed to be an Amateur, which by definition, is for the LOVE of the results, which is all about MUSIC and the GRAND ILLUSION of it's reproduction thereof.

 

Either way, you pay your money, connect it all up, and enjoy your own sonic illusion! Peace, Love, Beatles!

 

As to the "flared port thing," I refer to my background in Automotive Electronics Design. The Japanese kicked Detroit's collective bootie, starting inthe 70's by taking all the principles taught by W. Edwards Deming, and Genichi Taguchi. They simply did 1,000 things 1% better and ended up with a 10X improvement in QUALITY vs. the sloppy factory habits of the Americans (I worked at an assembly plant, so I know this for a fact). Now a loudspeaker is not as complex as a car, but when Klipsch engineers do 100 things 1% better, you still end up with a speaker that is TWICE as good as the one before, am I right?

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