MeloManiac Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 After recapping my C-crossover with Jantzen Cross Capitors, it seems as if my Heresy I pair have improved remarkably after a week or so, esp. in the low frequencies. Or is it my brain/ears adapting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 32 minutes ago, ILI said: Or is it my brain/ears adapting? Yes. I'd say any noticeable difference between your recap and the original would be immediate and anything after that is you simply adapting to the changes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 A week is about right for that capacitor type - between 10 and 20 hours. You noticed the difference in sound almost immediately, which of course makes sense because you changed the parts out. So, now you notice another change, and I know from experience that it's not exactly subtle. What makes more sense to you - something happened to effect the sound, or you "got used to it"? How is hearing a new change explained by getting used to something? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 How do capacitors cause perceived change in the "low" frequencies? I submit it's indirectly - the higher-frequency response changes relative to it. Separate issues yet linked. Reminds me of grade-school science where experimentation was discussed which caused an optical inversion for the test subjects. Over continuous time the brain adapts with fully-normal function resuming; the adaptive process starting anew with the subsequent removal of the inversion. Of course we didn't have YouTube with which to "independently" verify the claim... I know first-hand this sort of thing works as described since at one point I figured an eye exam might be prudent with five of six children and both parents needing glasses otherwise, it didn't seem logical that I should be exempt. Turns out it was primarily (minor) astigmatism as opposed to far- or near-sightedness. The eye doctor told me when I picked up the glasses that I likely wouldn't wear them much. The correction was similar-but-opposite rotation of the barrel-slice lenses. On the way home I stopped by the music store to get some sheet music to see if I still had any "chops" on the grade-school instrument I had in storage. I thought it was cool that they cut the book slightly "keystoned" as if it would appear rectangular when open on the stand (slouching a bit as it does). But then I noticed CD jewel boxes were keystone-shaped as well. And that they would "slide into" rectangles before my eyes (with fluid "motion"!) when removing the eyeglasses while looking at the containers. After some "unrecorded" time the effect was reversed. They'd start out rectangular with glasses and "slide into" (anti) keystones upon removal. The glasses eventually succumbed and were not replaced until years later with drugstore reading glasses, which now accompany me everywhere... Which sensory-perception story is tangentially pertinent to this very topic IMO. The changes in sound take some time to "register" and, I suppose, the caps require some settling-in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 19 minutes ago, glens said: Over continuous time the brain adapts with fully-normal function resuming; I agree. I had my rp160m speakers on top of the Heresies for easy comparison but I quickly put them in another room because switching between them was schizophrenic and dibilitating. It was quite literally hurting. Now I can enjoy both speakers safely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Of course, "fully normal brain function" is itself a completely relative standard, is it not? ;^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 In the context of this topic, the statement doesn't make any sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 A little more whiskey will help with that, Dean. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Certainly you've at least known someone whom after getting a new pair of eyeglasses (especially so their first pair) walk a little funny for, oh, maybe 10 hours or so? Is it really the capacitors changing, or perhaps the brain's processing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 16 minutes ago, glens said: Certainly you've at least known someone whom after getting a new pair of eyeglasses (especially so their first pair) walk a little funny for, oh, maybe 10 hours or so? Is it really the capacitors changing, or perhaps the brain's processing? I agee. When I buy a new pair of glasses with broad arms (temples), I first see them, but later my brain filters them away. With sound it must be similar. I once read about designing speakers that actually listening to them is as much important as specs and numbers of components. The brain is and remains a mystery, auditory memory included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 The only time I've experienced that is with bifocals or trifocals. Normally, I either see better or I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 58 minutes ago, glens said: A little more whiskey will help with that, Dean. That also doesn't make any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 3 hours ago, glens said: Certainly you've at least known someone whom after getting a new pair of eyeglasses (especially so their first pair) walk a little funny for, oh, maybe 10 hours or so? Is it really the capacitors changing, or perhaps the brain's processing? Sure, but the lenses are static, while the film in a metallized capacitor changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 It may well be that, much the same way as a lot of things with computer-controlled closed-loop production systems (for example modern vehicle engines), "break in" is a lot quicker now than it used to be. In the case of (particularly crossover) capacitors which aren't hand made (or not), I don't see there being enough "motive" force being generated between / among the internal component parts by the electrical signals which could alter physical relationship. And that's primarily (altering physical relationships), in my book, what's accomplished with "breaking in." Certainly with solder joints (in particular!) and coil windings this must be a complete non-issue or you're dealing with defects. It's obvious by experience that capacitors do change over time as chemical compositions degrade, so I'll leave a little window open for break-in at the outset, but it's likely more the initial flurry in a long degradation process. Never heard of a coil winding going bad apart from physical or electrical abuse though I suppose it's possible the insulation film could shrink over time allowing the windings to loosen some small amount. That could conceivably alter efficiency and frequency response characteristics. In the low-power environment of home audio that seems less likely a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I'm glad my system isn't so revealing that this stuff catches my notice off the forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 This same question has been posted in two different places. The OP is not doing himself any favors or getting any good feedback by doing this. Stick to a single thread. As for me, I have given up on this question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechEngVic Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The truth is: It's both. I don't know why it's so hard for everyone to understand this. There is no 2 sides to this issue, there is only one. New capacitors break in. AND, your ears adjust. If it was just your ears adjusting, then your ears would get used to a poorly sounding system, and it would eventually sound great to you, and you would have no need to upgrade. We all know that's not the case. Your ears DO adjust, but just a little. Your amazing ears can discern incredibly small changes. If not, you would eventually get used to your subwoofer being a bad spot and you'd even stop noticing that tweeter that stopped working. Capacitors will give you 80+% of their improvement upon installation. The last few percent's worth of improvement will happen when enough current has flowed through and established its best path. You guys know that capacitors charge and discharge numerous times, creating significant electric and magnetic fields strong enough to microscopically displace layers inside the capacitor and re-settle them in slightly different positions? Many have liquids in them that re-distribute themselves as charge builds and ebbs. Just read a little on how manufacturer's make them. They also break them in. Or they're supposed to. But they only break in a small percentage of the manufactured batch. If they test in spec, they assume the rest are good and they let the customer finish breaking them in. Other dynamics also exist in caps and play a part in their breaking in. The improvements will be subtle, but we've all gotten our ears used to subtle changes. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 hours ago, Deang said: Sure, but the lenses are static, while the film in a metallized capacitor changes. If so I want better film that is stable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeloManiac Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 hours ago, MechEngVic said: Capacitors will give you 80+% of their improvement upon installation. The last few percent's worth of improvement will happen when enough current has flowed through and established its best path. This puts exactly to words my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I've experienced the above-mentioned distortion produced by new glasses, like round objects aren't round, or stairways have a different perspective (and must be treated with respect so you don't put a foot wrong and fall down them), until your eyes have time to adapt to the distortion and your brain recalibrates itself, usually within a day. It was worst when I first got glasses, and only recurred once later, with a stronger prescription change than usual. Yes, your ears do something similar, which you can hear if you listen to a song on your phone or iPad (it sounds tolerable), then listen to it through your good system, and then listen to the phone or tablet again. Now it sounds like a cheap toy. With capacitors, as mentioned in MechEngVic's post above, most of the change caused in going to new caps is instantly audible. It's not a new and unfamiliar form of distortion, it's better sound, like the designer intended the speakers to sound, because now the caps are within spec. If the improvement is less obvious a few days later, that's your ears adapting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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