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MicroMara

The difference between Moving Magnet / Moving Coil / Moving Iron Cartridges

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A TT  follows the laws of physics

 

A turntable is a complex electromechanical spring mass oscillating circuit

Consisting of five individual systems arranged in a row: 1) is the needle in the movable needle bearing 2) the tone arm in the chassis 3) form the two 1+2 together with the platter+platter bearing+chassis . In addition, the high frequency scanning for magnetic systems is indispensable: 4.+5.) the electrical resonant circuit of the pickup system and the supporting cantilever self-resonance. But these remain outside for the time being, since they only have an effect in the high frequencies >10Khz.

 

 

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On 8/28/2020 at 7:25 PM, thebes said:

Great thread by the way. Concise, helpful information for those thinking of getting in to the whole needle thing.

-----Vinyl is for Die hearts and I thought we replaced  needles with  a Laser long ago ----maybe they should have created a laser capable of reading vinyl records   ------even  SHURE  who were  a huge manufacturer    is out of the needle-cartritge business-----not looking good for vinyl  at all -stuff is so expensive , it is becoming prohibitive

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@RandyH000 said : maybe they should have created a laser capable of reading vinyl records 

 

Here they are Randy ...The ELP Corporation from Japan has been providing these for a long time. Prices from $ 19.000 > $ 30.000 depending on Model

 

Uncompressed, non-digitized, pure analog audio" is what the solutions from ELP Japan promise, even though the models ELP LT Basic, ELP LT Master I, ELP LT Master II and ELP LT Master III are so-called laser turntables, i.e. systems that do not mechanically scan records with a needle, but optically with a laser.

 

ELP-LT-Basic---ELP-LT-Master-I---ELP-LT-Master-II---ELP-LT-Master-III-03.jpgELP-LT-Basic---ELP-LT-Master-I---ELP-LT-Master-II---ELP-LT-Master-III-04.jpg

ELP-LT-Basic---ELP-LT-Master-I---ELP-LT-Master-II---ELP-LT-Master-III-05.jpg

 

 

 

 

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On 8/25/2020 at 9:05 AM, artto said:

This has been my favorite for many years.

I guess "technically" it sort of fits in the moving iron category, but no "cantilever" in the traditional sense.

I use the Decca Jubilee.

 

Image result for decca phono cartridge

 

Image result for decca phono cartridge

 

Image result for decca phono cartridge

 

image.jpeg.8dd4d5b7dd4fae29c3a966c0abe47fef.jpeg


A brilliant cartridge 

I alternate my London Decca Gold that has the genuine Garrott brothers fine tuning with other MM or Mi carts 

 

post-112724-0-83963100-1463805551_thumb.

 

post-112724-0-63871900-1463805585_thumb.

 

 

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@Full Range  The Decca London  is a moving magnet and not a moving iron pickup . Needle suspension with double string, scans exactly as LPs are cut, unmatched dynamics and liveliness

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4 minutes ago, MicroMara said:

@Full Range  The Decca London  is a moving magnet and not a moving iron pickup . Needle suspension with double string, scans exactly as LPs are cut, unmatched dynamics and liveliness


Yes I know the Decca is an MM cart 

Did you know that they require a lower resistance loading in the phono stage  

The Decca likes to be at around 22K Ohms, not the standard 47K Ohms for best sound output 

 

 

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Well, I was going to point out that when we toured The Record Plant in 1974 or '75, we were told that people were working on a player that would scan an ordinary stereo Lp (vinyl) with a laser instead of using a stylus.  I thought that was because of what they were smoking.  Now I found out that ELP did it!

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On 8/23/2020 at 4:43 PM, RandyH000 said:

The sky's the limit here , there are TT worth 50k$ ---------less than 10k$ gets you a Linn LP12 which is very-very  good -

Try a half a million dollars for a TT. Saw/heard one at the Wilson Audio Demo in Ann Arbor.

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6 hours ago, MicroMara said:

@RandyH000 said : maybe they should have created a laser capable of reading vinyl records

Thanks Mara , I remembered seeing these a few years , ago , and the cost factor was  so unrealistic -and it just never took off --

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3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Try a half a million dollars for a TT. Saw/heard one at the Wilson Audio Demo in Ann Arbor.

unbelievable but true , the sky's the limit here , and every year , they get more and more expensive , for me SME Arms and koetsu -Supex cartridges is where I draw the line --------

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12 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

-----Vinyl is for Die hearts and I thought we replaced  needles with  a Laser long ago ----maybe they should have created a laser capable of reading vinyl records   ------even  SHURE  who were  a huge manufacturer    is out of the needle-cartritge business-----not looking good for vinyl  at all -stuff is so expensive , it is becoming prohibitive

 

The laser turntable seemed like a great idea.  No physical contact with the disc should mean no surface wear, and no clicks and pops being added to the music with each play.  However, it turned out that the laser couldn't tell the difference between a ridge in the record groove that was a feature of the music and a bit of dust or dirt that was sitting in the groove.  This meant that the laser could resolve and retrieve the finest details of the dirt very accurately, so that clicks and pops could be heard with superb clarity, not quite what the designers were going for.

 

On the other hand, a cartridge like a Shure M97xE, which is good but not great, seems to ride at a different level in the groove than the part where the dirt and scratches mainly reside, so that formerly noisy records can sound less noisy and more musical with the M97 than with some other more expensive cartridges, or even the laser system.  This may be why the price was not the only reason that the laser turntable never caught on with hi-fi hobbyists, and is mostly used by libraries and the like for transcription and archiving of irreplaceable records.

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I read or seen a video somewhere ?

For those laser turntables they recommend to deeply clean the record every time it’s payed 

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5 minutes ago, Full Range said:

I read or seen a video somewhere ?

For those laser turntables they recommend to deeply clean the record every time it’s payed 

@Islander   @Full Range  That´s right ......................

 

The highlight of ELP Japan's solutions is that no conventional pickup system is used, i.e. no needle has to be guided in the groove of the record to scan the information mechanically. Rather, a laser is used, or actually a laser unit, which is intended to ensure particularly accurate scanning by using a total of five laser beams, divided into so-called tracking beams and data beams for the two channels. ELP Japan is convinced that even the highest-quality classic pickup is not capable of scanning all the information on a record without distortion. ELP Japan's purely optical, non-contact system, on the other hand, scans completely free of any distortion, and is much more accurate in terms of both dynamics and frequency. In addition, each pickup would have its own system-related characteristics, so that, on balance, they would sound different. This is not the case with the optical scanning of the ELP Laser Turntable. These solutions would provide exactly the information that is actually in the groove, no more, no less.

 

This laser scanning simply eliminates many of the problems that occur with conventional mechanical scanning, such as no horizontal track angle error, no crosstalk between channels, no level problems between channels, no anti-skating compensation, no increased distortion of internal tracks, and no hum problems, to mention just a few very important points. Even the positioning of the ELP Laser Turntable is absolutely uncritical, according to the manufacturer. In addition, even wavy records do not cause any problems during scanning, as the laser unit can react to them. Eccentrically cut records should also be able to be played back without any problems, and even scratches should leave the ELP laser turntable unimpressed and not stand in the way of accurate playback. Only dust is still a problem, because the laser cannot "identify" it as such, so a clean record is the most important prerequisite for optimal playback.

 

The drive is controlled by high-precision servos and belt drives, which also play a major role in ensuring accurate results at all times. The rotational speed can be between 30 and 50 rpm, in some cases even up to 60 and 90 rpm. In addition to the standard rotational speeds of 33 and 45, and 78 rpm on some models, the drives thus also permit a so-called Forward and Back Seek, whereby the rotational speed can be finely adjusted in 0.1 RPM steps. The signal processing is exclusively analog, there is no digitization at any point, and there is no need to fear any compression. Thus a "pure analog signal path" is always guaranteed.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

unbelievable but true , the sky's the limit here , and every year , they get more and more expensive , for me SME Arms and koetsu -Supex cartridges is where I draw the line --------

Good idea.

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7 hours ago, MicroMara said:

Only dust is still a problem, because the laser cannot "identify" it as such, so a clean record is the most important prerequisite for optimal playback.

Dust has been a problem in the Darkroom also. Not mentioned is that Vinyl carries signals from TAPE MASTERS, with some noise in the -60-70db range, which is absent on Blue Ray Digital recordings, which allow for 135 db dynamic range which translates to 1,000,000 times less noise and resolution beyond any analog system!

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3 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Dust has been a problem in the Darkroom also. Not mentioned is that Vinyl carries signals from TAPE MASTERS, with some noise in the -60-70db range, which is absent on Blue Ray Digital recordings, which allow for 135 db dynamic range which translates to 1,000,000 times less noise and resolution beyond any analog system!

Forgot to add that after watching the video, I don't agree with the Japanese gentleman that analog is better than digital, it's the other way around, but nostalgia is, apparently, stronger than science! Here's a book written by a friend of mine all about hearing. I worked with him at Foveon in the development of the world's ONLY full color sensor about 20 years ago. He also invented the Optical Mouse when he worked a Xerox PARC. He and his team also created the Google Street camera.

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Machine-Hearing-Extracting-Meaning/dp/1107007534/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=richard+f.+lyon&qid=1598901711&sr=8-1

 

 

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Now comes a turntable that you can build yourself, completely from bamboo wood, all components are from IKEA. There are already some built and they should sound really great. It´s said that these sound in the price range to $ 5000 . Ok  this is also related to the quality of the cartridge. But the idea is sensational...

 

image.jpeg.1ad69e8407a48550c619d0cbb748ed7e.jpeg   image.jpeg.b345ea77b1381e92f4963d003b5b132d.jpeg   Gelegenheit macht Töne – Der IKEA Plattenspieler - seconds 

image.jpeg.37cd454884edfe461f3a50b0355d5a42.jpeg   image.jpeg.2e29d758b70ac6f762a63aabadfd938b.jpeg    image.jpeg.4765eee6611caa72c53e8d66e64fe6ce.jpeg

 

 

Gelegenheit macht Töne – Der IKEA Plattenspieler - seconds   image.jpeg.a280ef8649e5ca6e8b527a41fae8fbfa.jpegIkea Plattenspieler - Jochen Soppa 

 

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@RandyH000  said SME

 

SME  AUDIO are building their own TT´s now ..The Model SME 12

 

grafik.png.7a6fed305cce713943118ccd802d7ca8.pnggrafik.png.67f5952de3c98de50ae5abd686a71754.png

 

 

 

grafik.png.8e2600d3baf71e308bbdcbe48244116b.pnggrafik.png.96132dc7bc5d4f2d8e140be87ca0212d.png

 

grafik.png.ccaf04c10ab09dfb76c8f326d91c9df4.png

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MicroMara said:

.The Model SME 12

am I The only one , or is this TT really lack styling

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