Brian HCM#1 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 The issues with Iraq is about terrorists, ans Saddam harbors them. Does anyone out there think that if biological or nuclear weapons get in the hand of these people we are in serious trouble. We are screwed big time, they have no reguard for innocent people, they hate Americans plain & simple. The are raised that way as may of you were raised with some religious beliefs. This is what they were tought and believe in right or wrong. Sorry if this offends anyone but we need to put our foot down now!!!!! Show them that we AREN'T bullies, but yes the most powerful country in the world and if we are pushed to far, their countries will pay the price, and if war is the answer so be it. I hate living in fear in my own country, it shouldn't be that way. We cannot make peace with these people so somethig drastic must be done. It's them or us, we have had too many innocent Americans lost from the highjackings. Remember the key word here........Innocent Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Forrest...Far from it...I am a well-trained COMBAT leader...and as such I realize that SUCCESSFUL MISSION ACCOMPLISHMENT is FIRST priority...the welfare and health of my MEN is second ONLY to the FIRST...BUT...NO LEADER WANTS TO LOSE HIS MEN!!! There is NOT one iota of technology that we have developed since the Gulf War that will do a damned thing about saving a grunt from a nerve agent...and no matter HOW much technology we have to give us "accurate battlefield intelligence"...NOTHING can replace a soldier with EYES ON THE OBJECTIVE!! I have seen the results of leaders using tech and ignoring what a soldier actually SEES far too many times...with the results always being disastrous!! For every tech advancement, somebody ALWAYS finds a countermeasure!! I outta know...that was my freakin JOB at JRTC for over two years!!! And I was DAMNED GOOD at it too!! LOL! Whenever a commander at ANY level fools himself into thinking hi-tech can replace a soldier on a battlefield he is DEAD WRONG!!! The bad part is that SOLDIERS DIE because of it!!! You can replace a high tech toy when it gets damaged, but a dead soldier is still dead!!! To me and the vast majority of other professional soldiers...there is NO excuse for a wasted life!! We all realize that lives WILL get lost, but NONE of us LIKE IT!!...and we do our DAMNEDEST to prevent it!! The worst part of all is that the higher up in command a person moves...the more DETACHED from the frontline soldiers and their situation he becomes...these boys become nameless numbers on a planning board to them!! And the "BIG PICTURE" they have at the Pentagon is far removed from the reality of what is going on in the battle being fought!! Their only concern is that objectives get taken on time and the battle remains fluid...no matter what the cost...unless they all of a sudden realize that they are out of bodies to commit to battle!! Then it is too late to do anything about it!! You can ask any SP/4 in an infantry unit if he believes his unit is well-enough trained AND led to accomplish a particular task...and you will get a fairly accurate answer if he is being honest!! But what the pentagon has to answer those questions is a bunch of paper answers that are glossed over so that commanders remain in a career position...trust me on this one!! Once a commander has risen above Battalion level command in combat arms units, it is ALL POLITICS!!! He no longer has the worries of his career ending while in charge of a maneuver element in combat...and he is generally TOTALLY out of touch with the foot soldier!! From that point forward...human life is just a number to him!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj993 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 ---------------- On 11/29/2002 7:53:20 PM Brian HCM#1 wrote: The issues with Iraq is about terrorists, ans Saddam harbors them. Does anyone out there think that if biological or nuclear weapons get in the hand of these people we are in serious trouble. We are screwed big time, they have no reguard for innocent people, they hate Americans plain & simple. The are raised that way as may of you were raised with some religious beliefs. This is what they were tought and believe in right or wrong. Sorry if this offends anyone but we need to put our foot down now!!!!! Show them that we AREN'T bullies, but yes the most powerful country in the world and if we are pushed to far, their countries will pay the price, and if war is the answer so be it. I hate living in fear in my own country, it shouldn't be that way. We cannot make peace with these people so somethig drastic must be done. It's them or us, we have had too many innocent Americans lost from the highjackings. Remember the key word here........Innocent Americans. ---------------- I agree that no one should have to live in fear in their own country. However, pushed to far? All of this is the result of the American occupation of the middle east and support for Israel. Is it that hard to pull out of there and back off from involving themselves in everyone's business? I know you see this from the American perspective which, granted you live in America so you should, but you should also view it from other nations perspectives. Iraqis don't hate American's, not all of them, so what happens when the U.S. goes to war with Iraq, what about the innocent Iraqis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 forest hump: me spouting off? go screw someone and releive that dangerously high testosterone of yours. I'd like to see you eager to rush off into a full fledged war if you were one of the guys who'd be on the front lines taking the bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 Forrest, with all due respect -- but you are so far to the Right that you are almost fascist. Any point given even slightly left of your position warrants that the liberal accusation be leveled. C'mon man, that's messed up. HR, excellent, well thought out posts. Don't bother trying to win a point with Forrest. You could be right a hundred times over, and he ain't gonna budge an inch. Ain't that right Forrest? BTW -- Saddam, and many inhabitants of the Middle East -- consider US to be the terrorists. It all depends on which side of the fence you are standing. Not only is Bush an oil loon, but Cheney is Coo-Coo for Cocoa Puffs for the stuff as well. It's ALWAYS about oil. Hell, Vietnam may not have started out about oil, but it sure ended up about it. Kennedy orders a withdrawal, is killed -- and within a week Johnson orders the biggest buildup of the war. I suppose some could argue that since this country runs on oil, it's always going to be a National Security Issue. I guess if we find ourselves in the position of being forced to pump all of ours out of the ground -- we could be in a world of hurt. I can only guess that alternative sources of energy just don't pump enough money into the economy, or sufficiently line the pockets of the Seven Sisters. As long as Americans are content to take their news from the A.P., and the front of the White House lawn -- we are going to continue to have an ignorant electorate. Propaganda is NOT news. Jeepers folks, listen to what 'they' are telling you, and then ask yourself: "Why are they telling me this?" We haven't had 'real' mainstream journalism since Watergate. There really needs to be some balance in our thinking. I read the Washington Times, and then scan the Washington Post. It's bewildering sometimes. I just figure the truth lies in the middle. At any rate -- bombing a million civilians is not the way to go about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 I have read all the posts here and will answer on-topic first. The music selection for our glorious USAF and NAVY pilots during their sorties should be: "Let the bodies hit the floor" by Drowning Pool. Now, I have read all the posts here and am saddened that many here have no backbone and have already lost sight of the fact that terrorists flew TWO jumbo jet commercial airliners into the World Trade Center buildings and KILLED over 3,000 innocent Americans from all ethnic and religious backgrounds trying to live in peace/harmony together here in the US. I guess we should just pull out of the Middle East, Afghanistan and everywhere else in the world where we are trying to help countries that have oppressive governments and ruthless dictatorships, right? I wonder where the world would be today if the US didn't go and defend ALL OF EUROPE during WWII against Nazi Germany and Hitler's sick plan. I wonder if France would exist if not for the US saving their ***. I wonder how long Israel would remain unattacked if the US wasn't their best friend in the world. It is a matter of principle people. You either support a semi-Democratic, peaceful society or you don't, or as Bush has said, "You either are in support of Terrorism or against it" (paraphrased). DeanG- Do you actually think our gov. will plan a ground assault before we decimate every last moving object in Iraq?? Don't think it (Bio warfare/VX) is not our gov/military's biggest concern because it is. I have a brother 20 years in the USAF and they have Job 1---Air superiority and destroy all major offensive threats on the ground other than individual people. Why would we even need to bring in ground troops when we will own the skies and can contain them from above??? We are not putting Iraq on notice, we are putting the WORLD on notice that you WILL be attacked if you harbor, protect, promote or sponsor terrorism. This is not to lose the element of surprise but in order to give them very last chance to do what is right and also to gain support from the world community that we have given ample notice Why don't we all go stick our heads in the sand and wait until they hit the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Transamerica building in San Francisco (no smartass comments about liberal SF please) just kidding Forrest! Or a crowded school or airport terminal...Should we just go back to sleep as a country like the Clinton years and strive for photo opportunites with ruthless dictators like Yasser Arafat and Palestine. Yasser must be laughing now after all of the photos and lunches with Clinton promising he would be nice to Israel and that he has nothing to do with the attacks on them. How many more Innocent Americans or otherwise need to die before you people get it?? If your loved one(s)were lost due to WTC/9/11 or the recent bombings in Bali, would you be satisfied to just have our gov./military sit home and wait for the shoulder launched rockets to hit our commercial runways and take out more civilians?? There is a fundamental difference in phiolosophy, ideology and religion both here in this country and in the world. Some believe that we should cohabitate and strive for a democratic western style of life and government and others despise the western world and all that it stands for. The biggest difference being that many who oppose us will kill innocent people in their ignorant fight for what they believe is right whereas the US will defend itself vigorously against those who harm innocent civilians on our soil or our neighbors. Forest is right on! Too bad most conservatives wouldn't waste their breath on these lame criticisms and "do nothing, passive responses". It is not about oil, as much as that is good NY Times liberal hype, as it is about Freedom and protecting our society and way of life here in the US AND in other Free societies/countries in the world. Food for thought- Definition of a Liberal- Someone who just got pulled over for drunk driving. Definition of a conservative- Someone who just got pistol-whipped and car-jacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 never compare hitler and sadam, or hitler and osama bin laden for that matter. their goals are entirely different from one another. Hitler had his mind set on global domination, while osama binladen simply wants us out of his country. Answer this: what is our reason for being there in the first place? than you will see how trivial it is for us to still be ocupying the middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj993 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 It is true Hitler wanted world domination. The same can't be said for Osama. As per above, his goal is a simple one. Yes the U.S. did save France and yes they helped to turn the tide in WWI & WWII but that was then and this is now. It is not at all the same situation. To think so is ignorace. There were equally divded sides during those conflicts, that is not the case here. You do not see unilateral support for a war on Iraq. You do not see all the European countries backing the United States for an attack on Iraq and for good reason. Once again what is the real purpose behind the U.S. occupation of the Middle East? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian HCM#1 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 ---------------- I agree that no one should have to live in fear in their own country. However, pushed to far? All of this is the result of the American occupation of the middle east and support for Israel. Is it that hard to pull out of there and back off from involving themselves in everyone's business? I know you see this from the American perspective which, granted you live in America so you should, but you should also view it from other nations perspectives. Iraqis don't hate American's, not all of them, so what happens when the U.S. goes to war with Iraq, what about the innocent Iraqis? ---------------- Whats wrong with the support of Israel? They have always been sh*t on. For what? A little piece of land. Look what the Palistinians(sp)keep doing over there all their sinceless suicide bombings, come on now thats not right. We are always the country that trys to make peace, look at the $ we give to other countries to help them out. Do we see anything in return? No. During the terrorist attacks only one country came running to our side, the rest stood back cause they didn't want to get involved. Its amazing how we are always trying to help the underdog and get nothing in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 These sad patsy boy clowns for Osama go from one tired Liberal rant to another. SJ what that stand for? Socialist Jingoist??? Go look that up. LOL Cattle Prod is so far gone left he should go down to Hennipen Ave and bend over. Too bad about Mondale. Oh that's right you can't vote. Thank God for America. HAHAHA You clowns believe anything your leader Osama tells you. Funny he picked up on the Palestinian issue only in the last few years. And that's been going on for how long now? LOL Truth of the matter and its a fact that his reasonolgy changes to suit the American liberals. They're religious fanatics you idiots. They do what they think God tells them. After they helped beat the Soviets in Afghan, with our help, God told them to take down the next Super Power of infidels. It was only a matter of time until they moved to the US. For cripes sakes they're fanatical terrorists and they think they have a way to take down any superpower. Al Qaeda's goal is simple, to kill all the "infidels". Whether its religious or political Its still totalitarianism. They fear the spread of democracy and capitalism on its own merits. Not because we push it or have to push it. They know that it will bring the end of their radical version of Islam. Their version has no tolerance or acceptance of other cultures and ways of living. They cannot coexist even in moderate Islamic societies. They attack them too. Kuwait and Saudi invited US there in the first place to protect them from Saddamn. Maybe it would be easier to let a Saddamn and Al Qaeda take over all their countries then just have one big war. You think? You clowns really think that if we abandon our friends and pull back world advancement along with it, that Al Qaeda will be satisfied and become more moderate muslims? Well then bend over because Osama is coming to make you his goat slave. LOL Really you have proven that Al Qaeda and Saddamn can count on enough fools like you the same as did Hitler and Tojo. What I meant by advacements in military tech is that fewer ground troops or no ground troops are needed. Now Planes like the Preditor can take on tasks with no pilots. Soon we'll have cyborg robots for troops and the Liberals will have some other critisism. What it is for them is all politics and nothing else. Well looks like the American voters spoke and the GOP controls everything. He-he-hee Keep going toward the Canadian Socialists Left Libbies and become even more of a minority. HAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOOMIS914 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Brian, I have no problem with the US support of Israel...I hope that isn't an interpretation you made from my post. My point was that, if not for US support/backing, Israel and that part of the world would be far more unstable than it is already and they most certainly would be in a full scale war with Palestine and who knows who else. If Israels neighbors/enemies didn't fear the US getting involved they would have attacked them long ago. It doesn't hurt that we supply them with a little bit of cash and extra munitions to keep things fair over there. ------- Don't compare Hitler to Osama or Saddam---BS!!!! They "may" have different end goals in mind but there common disregard for human life and genocidal tendencies is a true parallel putting them all in the evil dictator category. Should I be sympathetic to Saddam and Osama's hatred of the US more so than Hitler's evil desire to rid the world of Jews and all others that didn't fit his description of supreme beings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj993 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 I suppose your bashing of other's makes you feel better about yourself. Well good for you, but it's really very pathetic. I never said I supported Osama or Saddam, it's simply a different point of view. Don't go assuming that Osama is our "leader." You just show your own stupidity by saying something like that along with all your other assinine "jokes." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and yours as well as mine are just that:opinions. And you really wonder why people hate America? It's stupidity and arogance from people such as yourself... for godsake grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 ---------------- On 11/29/2002 12:01:18 PM deang wrote: Good points. I can't say I disagree with any of that. Yes, you are right, I should not equate Christianity with the Church of Rome in that part of their history. However, don't you agree that the actions and mentality of the early State/Church of Rome, parallels radical Islam fairly well? Winning people over to Christ at the point of the sword, instead of the power of the Word of God. ---------------- Yes. Dean, I can certainly agree with that. Without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikekid Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 RIGHT ON BLOOMIS! I couldn't have said it better........whats not to understand here?? GEEEEZZzzzzzzzzz.............. Take care all. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Well...I would like to bring up this point...it was US who MADE Saddam what he is today...and who shored him up in power for YEARS to begin with!! He played us against the USSR for years, and he profited well by it!! He got pretty much free technical advice and military equipment from USSR, while we countered by giving him massive amounts of money in low-interest loans(which he still hasn't repaid, but neither do any of the other countries we loan money to, so that isn't the point). It was only after the fall of the USSR that he began to look like a problem to us...with his invasion of neighboring Kuwait being the match that lit the fuse!! Now, Saddam invaded Kuwait because over half the oil his country produced had to go through Kuwait to get to the Persion Gulf to be shipped, and Kuwait was charging him heavily for it...so...he just figured he would solve that problem by taking Kuwait for himself!! What he DIDN'T COUNT ON, was the reaction he GOT when he did it!! It was about oil then, and it is about oil NOW, TOO! Pretty damned simple!! Don't let yourseves get fooled here into believing 9/11 isn't just being used by the powers that be to garner support for their actions in this case!! Fact is, it really got under our and England's skin when those oil-producing countries over there finally more or less nationalized the industry after WE did ALL the WORK to get it going in the first place!! But it is OUR OWN FAULT!! We sent their kids to Harvard business college, where they learned just how much OUR oil companies were making from THEIR oil, and when they got home, they made a few changes!! That in itself was not enough, they also found out that OUR plan was to NOT use OUR oil, while draining the rest of the world of ITS OIL...so that when THEIRS was ALL GONE, we would still have OURS!!! So, they took the estimates of just how much oil they still had in the ground, and how LONG it would last at the then current rate of consumption and formed OPEC to up the prices of it so that the developed countries would be forced to slow down their consumption of it, and theirs would last longer...and so that they would get more money for it in the process!! In 1970, at the rate Arab oil was being pumped, they had ONLY 40-50 years before it would ALL BE GONE...then what would they do? Back to camels and the Mercedes is history, right??? So, they made a few more changes!! And don't think our oil companies lost any money in the process, either!! They NEVER lose money on this stuff!! Why? Because they just raise the price we have to pay for it at the pump!!! And they don't even have the decency to wait until the higher priced oil is what we are pumping to do it!! And when the LAST George was in the white house, somehow the subject of our having a nuclear-powered NAVY and it not needing all that oil in Teapot Dome Naval Oil Reserves was brought up...so the powers that be decided to sell it to the oil companies...wonder how that happened??? HUH?? Now Teapot Dome Naval Oil Reserves are owned by you and I, dammit...so where is MY check for the sale of that oil???? Did you get YOUR check??? Face it folks, we have been reaping the crappy end of our foreign policies for the last few years!! And it has cost us dearly in bombs, bullets, and fuel..not to mention LIVES!!! Who the hell do you think put Noriega in power and kept him there? How much did it cost to go get him??? Here is something else to think about!! The last time we went to the Persion gulf with our military might, we had lots of buddies there with theirs to help out. But this time we don't! And to top it off, the downsizing of our military after we returned from there, whittled our effective combat power down severely!! We no longer have a 5th Infantry Division(Mech), nor do we have a 7th Infantry Division, or a 6th Infantry Division, nor many other combat elements!!! And to top it all off, those National Guardsmen and other reservists who went, or held the fort while others went, aren't deployable either!! A reservist is only REQUIRED to attend ONE presidential call-up for overseas duty in his/her career!! AND over half of our current reservists have already met that requirement!! Not only that, but our military commitment has expanded broadly since then. We now have troops in just about every damned country that was a part of the former Soviet Union...or the former Warsaw Pact...we are also spread thin throughout Central and South America...and in the Phillipines, and even have folks in Malaysia!!! All of these folks have jobs to do where they currently are!! And generals at the Pentagon have been begging reservists to go on tours to help out for years!!! SO...just where is this mighty kick-*** Army we are gonna whip Saddam's *** with gonna come from??? Think about it!! If this war happens, and becomes a protracted ground war, our kids had better start learning how to salute and shoot, and fast!! And with our economy on a downslope, the last thing we need is to be paying higher taxes while still going into deficit spending to pay for it!!! And I have already mentioned what our kids will have to look forward to once they get Saddam backed into a corner over there...so before hollering "Let's Kick His ***"...try to see the big picture!! OK???? We have been actively pursuing every opportunity to take Saddam out ever since 1990. Trust me on that!! But he has managed to elude us...and is still there!! To top THAT fact off...just think about old Akmed, the Iraqui...who was jerked out of his home...handed an AKM, and put up front as cannon fodder in 1991, and who was blown off the face of the earth in the process. Well, he didn't want a war!! But he was forced to go to war, or be shot in front of his family. And his family has done without him ever since. And his three boys aged 2, 4, and 6 in 1991, are now able to carry a rifle...and they have been told all their lives by the "powers that be" in Iraq that the bloodthirsty infidel Americans are the reason Dad never came home!! Now multiply those three rifle-toting indoctinees by about a million or more...and add them to the serious fanatics that already existed...then send our kids over there to march into THEIR back yards, ok??? Think about it!!! This WON'T be a three-day war!!!! THERE HAS TO BE ANOTHER WAY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forresthump2 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 That the shame about 'Nam. It turned what looks to be a good trooper into a hippy that doubts his country leadership. Liberal Democrats sure work all angles to try to get all on their side. They even create and lose a Bullsh*t war only to make us weaker in the future. LOL And now I see oil companies make more $ when the oil price goes up AND down. LOL Class warfare liberal BS plain and simple. You should go back and try to unionize Klipsch. LOL You can be some balanced when you state your case. Look at all the ommissions. You fail to include that the only reason we gave some support to Iraq was to help them beat back Iran who brutally took 50 some of our fellow Americans hostage. I can say you were for Iran and be just as open as your biased BS. Look at Iraq's weaponry. Almost all Soviet and Chinese. They don't have any American hardware. This is what happens when you blame America first. You go to the enemies side in the eyes of true patriots. Look at Social Jingoist. I'm not taking that crap from a foreign Cunuck moose lover. He and PRIME MINISTER JEAN CHRÉTIEN are morons. LOL Nothing good to say except for the terrorists. Sure it OK to be critical of your GOV in a Republican Democracy. But its easy to see who is so biased they have to come off as traitors. They're so blinded by the FAR LEFT Democrats that they are ignorant how obvious it is. It's all politics and they don't like the GOP. Plain and simple. Don't let them snow you that its not. Some like SJ and Cattle Prod arent even conscious of the fact they're brainwashed by their Leftist leaders. LOL "Unilateral" my ***. There's a Liberal mantra word. What is Unilateral about a unanimous UN vote? And it would have never happened without the leadership of W Bush taking a hard line approach. UK is already with us miltarily and the rest will follow. After their pathetic Presidents the Liberals don't know leadership if it jumped up and bit them in their face. After 8 years of Clintonization its easy to see those that now know leadership and visionary thinking. Most of the crybaby wimps who always blame America first will be the last to catch on if ever. Like I say they make great decoys for the enemy. Saddamn and Osama listen to you and want to believe you. Thanks for the cover Libbies. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj993 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Think I'm a pro-terrorist do you? Think again. I'm not for terror anything, the fact that you even think so show's your stupidity. You say you won't listen to a canuck, why because I'm from another country have a different opinion than you, so you think your right? Everytime you try and make fun of me and anyone else you just make you like like a jackass. Congratulations you have more than accomplished that. GROW UP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prodj101 Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 my god, could you possibly be any more naive? All you want to do is fight fight fight. Go sign up for the military, and fast. You need to learn some discipline and respect, and that seems to be the only way you could possibly learn it, since your retarded parents obviously passed the "kill first, analyze data second" gene down to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Forrest...you really DON'T have a clue, do you???? You are so extreme on one end you don't see what is on the way!! And you obviously don't know ME at all!! I am not a liberal or a conservative...I disdain labels...and I vote for the lesser of two evils that are put before me on the ballots, IMHO!! No matter which party they belong to!! We were playing Saddam's game for years before the Iran/Iraq thing...because Iraq and Iran both were buffer states adjacent to the "evil empire"...and we were duped by him...but we did what was necessary at the time to ensure that oil over there kept flowing in THIS direction...pretty simple...and we are still doing it!! I want an end to terrorism...as we all do. I also want that treaty to be honored, but I am also a knowledgeable person about our military situation..and HIS, too!! And I know damned well what we are gonna be up against!! This ain't gonna be like the last time around!! And, trust me, the last time around could have been alot worse!! We were damned lucky, but then again, his back wasn't against the wall either...our goal was liberating Kuwait, NOT invading Iraq!! SO, he didn't unleash what he had then...and trust me...our military leaders were glad he didn't!! But this time is gonna be different!! My goal is to see this end without a protracted ground war...because I KNOW what is gonna happen!! He uses Soviet style organization...and those stocks of agents ARE NOT IN Warehouses...they are in warheads and such under divisional commander control!! ANd within those divisions, they are further disbursed...this ain't gonna be an " our flyboys can handle it" kinda thing!! It is gonna be village to village, city to city, and with lots of body bags involved!! Body bags containing young AMERICANS!!! You have no idea what a MOUT(Military Operations in Urban Terrain) operation entails!! I do!! And when you compound it with chemical warfare...it is NOT gonna be fun!!! Normal offensive operations demand a MINIMAL 3-1 superiority...MOUT operations entail over twice that...because you lose so many lives!! AMERICAN LIVES, dummy!!! And those figures are based on operations in a conventional warfare climate...NOT in an NBC(Nuclear/Chemical and/or Biological) situation!!! As a matter of fact, since we HAVE no experience on a real NBC battleground, our military leaders only have loose estimates at best of the required ratio of attackers to defenders that are gonna be needed to successfully carry out offensive operations in an NBC environment...they are blindly HOPING that Saddam WON'T use that stuff!!! So sit up there safe from it all and woof your crap, but I have alot better idea of what is likely to happen in a worse-case scenerio than you ever will!! Have a nice day!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 This thread is taking off, so instead of addressing individuals, I just want to address some of thoughts in the thread since I last posted. WWII -- Hitler was doing his thing, and we knew full well what was going on over there. We didn't jump into the war to stop Hitler. We were pulled into the war after Pearl Harbor. Our policies were completely isolationist in nature. A little bit of light reading regarding the relationship we had with Hitler in the early 30's is -- enlightening. I'm totally with HR here, and I appreciate his detailed posts. Everything he says is completely true. I would think the information he's providing is common knowledge. Evidently, that's not the case. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was clearly "greenlighted" by the State Department. It's obvious he was set up. Anyone that fails to see this is not being intellectually honest. The question is "why"? If it wasn't about oil -- then what the hell was it about? I certainly apologize if I have given the impression that something shouldn't be done because of 911. As far as I'm concerned, it was an act of war. The question is, war against who? I thought rooting out the Taliban in Afganistan was an excellent response. The response was appropriate, and from all accounts -- very successful. O.K., Bin Laden 'got away', but we completely destroyed his infrastructure. Instead of planning ops out of Afganistan, and having the luxury of real estate with which to train operatives, and plan full scale attacks -- the clown is on the run, orchastrating small scale B.S. in Africa and Indonesia. He's back to square one -- with most of the world hunting his butt. I don't think he miscalulated our response, but what he didn't count on was the other Muslim Nations standing idle while we did it. He wanted a holy war against us -- he didn't get it. The issue with Irag has NOTHING to do with the above. To two are being connected so Americans will support a war against Iraq. It's brainwashing pure and simple. There will always be terrorism. It is certainly not feesable to go after the dozen countries that support it. The truth is, we will never be able to put a total end to it. As long as there are tyrants and those who believe violent action is the way to achieve a political end -- it will exist. There is simply no defense against a person who not only has the will to carry out the destructive act, but has also determined to use their very person as the delivery system. We can exercise a measured response against Iraq based on their U.N. violations. This way we can maintain U.N. support of our actions, and exercise a degree of containment regarding Saddams activities. We should concentrate on his delivery systems, and military infrastructure. I see no reason to bomb cities. That's B.S., and doesn't do anything but fuel more hate against us. While we are doing this, we could also flood the landscape with food and non-perishables for the civilians. We need the support of the populous. Alienating the whole region from us in not really all that smart. We need a balanced foreign policy for the Middle East. Israel needs secure borders, and the only way this is going to happen is if they move back to the borders marked out by the U.N. before the Six Day War. It sucks. The territory is spoils of war, and I can understand them not wanting to give it up. However, the Palestinian situation is bigger than they can handle, and so there are two choices. 1) Israel moves back to the pre-1967 borders, and works with the U.S. and the International Community in the establishment of a Palestinian State. The U.S. and U.N. should not "ask" Israel to do this. They should be ordered to comply with the resolutions they themselves have been in violation of. Failure to comply results in sanctions, and the withholding of funds and loans. They become subject to the same consequences just like everyone else. 2) We continue to do nothing, and Israel is forced into a position of eventually having to take drastic action against a people that have inhabited that land for thousands of years. Don't forget, Zionism was in response to the Holocaust, and the land partitioned out for an Israeli State. This was a good thing. However, the now descendants of the Holocaust victims, will soon be forced into the position of having to come up with a "Palestinian Solution". Don't misunderstand me, I am in no way saying that present day Jews in Israel are twisted, warped, and evil -- in the way the rulers of the Nazi party were. I'm only saying this is the problem an Apartheid state is eventually faced with -- what to do about the "enemies" in "our" land. Israel has already involved themselves in activity that many (including me) view as human rights violations, and I'm wondering if left unchecked -- what extent will they go, to effectively deal with the Palestinians. I see some irony playing out here that seems to be lost on most people. Taking people's property, putting them in refugee camps, policing their actiivities and lives -- hmmm, where have we seen this before? God is not a respector of persons. The Jews find favor with Him the same way everyone else does -- by doing what is right. Their place in history is special because God chose them to bring forth Messiah, through which we all find acceptance with God (Jew and Gentile alike). The only real estate God is truly concerned with, is the real estate of the human heart. No one has free license to treat another as "beneath" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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