Music to bomb Bagdad by

[mike stehr]

Stormtroopers of Death:

F*ck the middle East

There's too many problems

They just get in the way

We sure could live without them

The hijack our planes

They raise out oil prices

We'll kill them all and have a ball

And end their f*ckin' crisis

Beirut, Lebanon-won't exist once we're done

Libya, Iran-We'll flush the bastards down the can

Syrians and Shiites-Crush their faces with our might

Then Israel and Egypt can live in peace without these dicks!

A little out-dated.

[prodj101]

I think this topic was somewhat out of line to begin with

[Mighty Favog]

My only type of "pillaging", as you put it, would be this. Every time the middle East cuts back on oil production I put a lot more money into the research of using alternative fuels in vehicles that will match the performance of what we have now. The price comes down in a week or so. They don't have us over an (oil) barrel as much as they would like.

[sj993]

----------------

On 11/27/2002 7:44:17 PM mike stehr wrote:

Stormtroopers of Death:

F*ck the middle East

There's too many problems

They just get in the way

We sure could live without them

The hijack our planes

They raise out oil prices

We'll kill them all and have a ball

And end their f*ckin' crisis

Beirut, Lebanon-won't exist once we're done

Libya, Iran-We'll flush the bastards down the can

Syrians and Shiites-Crush their faces with our might

Then Israel and Egypt can live in peace without these dicks!

A little out-dated.

----------------

That is the most retarded lyrics to a song I have ever heard. Talk about ignorance.

[sj993]

----------------

On 11/27/2002 5:04:13 PM prodj101 wrote:

ok hold up hold up hold up! First of all, how many countries doi you know of that have nuclear weapons? plenty! even we, the US has them, and alot of them. They estimate that world wide, there is enough nuclear fire power to creat the equivilant of having every man woman and child to have 5 tons of TNT. Iraq is not the only country to posses such powers. Maybe we should start sending troops to Russia and bomb them for having nuclear weapons? And besides, Iraq may be a horrible place to live, but that doesn't mean we have the right to be there. All osama wants is to have us withdrawl from the middle east, which I dont' think is a bad idea at all. We have no right to be their either.

----------------

Well said Prodj. The United States has no right to be in the Middle East. Think about it, what does Osama bin Laden really want? For the U.S. to withdraw from the Middle East and Israel. If there were no U.S. involvement in the region do you think there would have been all these terroist attacks? Every country should mind it's own affairs and not involve itself in other countries issues which they have nothing to do with in the first place. And if they do get involved it should be a multi-national effort like the U.N so it doesn't look like one country initiated the action and all the other countries follow suit.

Any attack on Iraq, whether it be U.S. alone or a U.N. action will still make it look like a mostly American attack, because it will be a mostly American attack. Furthermore it isn't a great idea to open up another front while your still trying to close the first one, it just opens you up to more attacks.

[jdm56]

Contrary to what I've read here, I believe this whole Iraq issue is NOT about oil. Call me naive, but I really do think it is about terrorism, specifically state-sponsored terrorism. To merely track down terrorists while ignoring the nations and institutions that fund, arm and coddle them, THAT is naive, IMO. And when one of those nations (Iraq), is about to develop nukes, well that ups the risks of innaction considerably, I would say.

I loath war. But I love freedom more. And freedom has never been "free". Like it or not, there are millions of Moslems who would dance in the streets if every man, woman, boy and girl in this country were blown to bits. And also, like it or not, we have been at war with "radical" Islam for nearly 10 years or so. Only trouble is, they were the only ones who knew it. After 9/11, only fools would still deny that there is a war going on.

And comparing radical Islam to "radical" Christianity is prepostorous. And exactly what IS "radical Christianity? Give me an example? Who is their leader? Who has he killed? Has he strapped a bomb to his body, stepped on a bus, and murdered children? Has he targeted women and children of the enemy, while hiding behind his own???

Everyone SHOULD be free to practice their own beliefs, but Islams own "holy" book exhorts them to kill infidels. And though we always try to draw a distinction between radical Islam (bad), and mainstream Islam (good), the fact is they all for the most part stick together: Saudi Arabia funds terrorists, and the women and children of Palestine rejoice at the shedding of innocent Israeli and American blood. And where was the outcry of American moslems after 9/11? Pretty danged weak I'd say. And probably more out of fear of reprisals. Actions do speak louder than words.

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, America!

[Deang]

I used to think this too. I don't anymore. There are just too many things that don't add up.

When I was comparing radical Islam and radical Christianity -- I was thinking of the Crusades and the Inquistions. The John Wayne mentality that thinks, "If you grab them by the balls, their minds will follow".

Please don't misunderstand me -- acts of violence against civilians is warped. I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying I understand why they have resorted to it.

I don't know what to think of "State Sponsored Terrorism", I mean, how much money does it really cost to strap some explosives to your chest, or take some classes on flying a plane, or driving a boat into a battleship. These are low budget, low tech operations. I would expect much more expensive and sophisticated operations if they were really being funded by big budgets.

Iraq is a problem, but so is India, Pakistan, and North Korea.

[sj993]

Having been to the Middle East I can say that radical Islam and mainstream Islam are two fine distinctions. Please do not associate all Muslims into once "radical" category. That is quite simply not the case. There are in fact many Muslims that do like America contrary to popular belief here in the States. The "holy" book you refer to is the Koran.

India and Pakistan are not a problem. They are a problem with each other, not anyone else. That conflict has been going on ever since Pakistan became their own nation. All about a piece of land that being Kashmir. The possibility of nuclear weapons use between the two nations is minimal at best.

[jdm56]

The Crusades? True, most historians would say that was the work of Christians. But if you define a Christian as, "a follower of Christ", then the answer is no, those were not Christians. Which is what I believe. In fact, the Roman Catholic Crusaders persecuted the true church and murdered thousands. I do not equate Roman Catholiciscm with Christianity at all. I am sorry if this offends anyone, so I won't push the issue. It's just what I believe.

As for the "good moslem/bad moslem" issue, their book speaks for itself. If they believe God inspired its writing, then they must believe they should kill infidels, or else their own teachings would brand them as traitors to Islam. Or, their book is the work of a man, and not of God. It has to be one way or the other.

Low budget to you and I may mean one thing. But what seems cheap to us would not be cheap at all to the poorest Palestinians, of which most of the suicide bombers are. Who pays the "martyr's" family? Iraq and Saudi Arabia have been linked to that. And recently, a ship load of weaponry and explosives bound for Palestine, was captured. Where did it sail from? Iraq.

[Deang]

Good points. I can't say I disagree with any of that. Yes, you are right, I should not equate Christianity with the Church of Rome in that part of their history. However, don't you agree that the actions and mentality of the early State/Church of Rome, parallels radical Islam fairly well? Winning people over to Christ at the point of the sword, instead of the power of the Word of God.

[forresthump2]

At least Dean had a solution to seal the borders although it is easier said than done when it come to terrorism. As simplistic and shollow as that is. LOL The Liberals are screaming Martial Law anytime anything is tried to combat terrorism so it always a delicate trade off. Look at the tons of illegal drugs coming in here all the the time. A free and open society has a real challeng trying to stop a few pounds of enriched plutonium from coming in. It could even come from here. Everything else like the detonators can be assembled here or smuggled easily.

""The No. 1 most feared atomic weapon is a kind

of bootleg nuke that could be made from a little

bit of relatively low-grade nuclear material and a

few sticks of dynamite.

Both the United States and the Soviet Union

have created sophisticated nuclear bombs the

size of suitcases, but the so-called "dirty bomb"

wouldn't create the metal-melting nuclear blast

those would. Instead, such a radiological bomb

would kill more with its plume of toxic radiation.

"Had the terrorists at the World Trade Center

used a radiological dispersal device, most parts

of lower Manhattan would have been rendered

uninhabitable," Tariq Rauf, director of the

nonproliferation program at the Monterey

Institute of International Studies, said.

The biggest appeal of such a weapon would be the fact that it requires neither a knowledge of

physics nor the smuggling of weapons-grade uranium or plutonium.

"It's not that hard to build a radiological bomb since all you have to do is disperse a bunch of

radioactive material," Brookings Institution senior fellow Michael O'Hanlon said.

Highly radioactive material is stored at over 1,000 facilities in 50 countries, according to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. The group says some facilities wouldn't be able to fend off would-be thieves looking for bomb ingredients. ""

Only an idiot would not take a preemptive mindset and go after the source. The best defense is offense if its justified.

This was suppose to be about Iraq and fanatics. Muslims will become more moderate or more modern with good old democracy and capitalism. I think anyone would agree Saddam is a fanatical tyrant who sponsers terrorism by his state. He takes potical enemies and dips them into a pool of acid with only their heads above. That's for entertainment. Then pulls them out with only their head and skeleton underneath.

I think holding countries and their governments to being either for or against terrorism in their action is a very wise policy.

Now Dean answer this. Is Saddam supporting the fight against Terrorism?

[prodj101]

no, but neither are many other countries in the world. Sweden, perhaps one of the nicest places to live in the entire world, and wealthy as well, is not activily participating in the fight.

[HDBRbuilder]

This thread disturbs me.

First of all...Dubya is an oil monger...and that is what HE is all about!!

Second of all, Islam is a religion, NOT a race of people. Its spread from the very beginning was at the point of a sword, beginning with Muhammad's return to Mecca. But, there is also provision for the "peoples of the book(Christians and Jews)", where they are SUPPOSED to be allowed TOLERANCE and the right to decide whether to convert to Islam or NOT...while all others either converted or died!!

Third of all, terrorism will never be stopped!! At best, it will be CURBED somewhat!!

Fourth of all, soldiering is a profession...and the last thing a soldier wants is a war...UNLESS he is a nutcase!! It is real easy for those who have never "seen the oliphant" to woof and rattle sabers...but a far different thing to actually be involved in successful combat!! Again, enter Dubya, who joined the National Guard to escape the draft, and then didn't even bother to make his required drill meetings!! A nuke over there is the LEAST of the worries that our boys will have!! Nerve agents don't play favorites...and atropine is about as useless as **** on a boar hog when one MINUTE droplet of VX contacts exposed skin!! It is almost impossible to sustain a conflict in MOPP gear(Military Operational Protective Posture...the suit, gloves, mask, and boots you HAVE to have ON to survive...and the suit ABSORBS the agent and has to be changed regularly!!!) ...that is a fallacy dreamed up, but never tested in real combat!! And believe me...when 25%(at least) of our engaged boys die in the first encounter with nerve agents while trying to get into complete MOPP4 equipment, the public will wake up and take notice!! The ONLY good thing about nerve agents is that they break down rapidly in the environment and don't end up leaving a long-term "no man's land" where they were employed!! THERE IS NO CURE FOR THEM, and when you only have 30 seconds to ten minutes before death, there is no time ANYWAY!!! Saddam could care less how many Iraquis die when/if he lets loose those agents on us!! We were damned lucky he didn't use them the LAST time around...he sure as hell COULD have done so, because he had them then too!!

Rule one for a fight: You don't announce that you are gonna whip somebody's butt and give them the time to prepare for it...you just do it!! Again enter Dubya...like father, like son...both of em give too much warning...allowing too much time before acting...WE WERE LUCKY the last time...it may not be the same THIS time!! The key to victory is SURPRISE!!!!!

As for bombing Baghdad...that is one of the OLDEST continuously inhabited cities on earth!! And it is FILLED with people who DON'T want a war, and who AREN'T combatants!!! Just because we see carefully orchestrated footage of throngs of people shouting down America, doesn't mean that is what the majority of them want!!! Most people...no matter WHERE on earth you go, just want to live their lives in PEACE!!

Now...the more radical of the members on the forum can call me whatever they want to...I don't care...but I have over 20 years of military experience...most of it as a grunt...and I was a volunteer, and a paratrooper...and yes, I have "SEEN the oliphant", too!! I have been an E-1 thru E-6...then I went to OCS! I am NBC qualified, a CERTIFIED Military Operations in Urban Terrain Trainer, a former Infantryman, Infantry officer, Air defense Officer, and Intelligence officer...and any other vast number of qualifications and experience!! I also know more about threat vehicles and small arms than the majority of today's SF guys do!! And my experience in the OPFOR at JRTC has shown me how pitifully prepared our best ground troops REALLY are for a long term engagement...especially in an NBC(nuclear, biological, chemical) environment!! The OPFOR, for those of you who aren't familiar with it, are the "enemy" replicators in the combat training centers...and we regularly sent out a platoon-sized element to take out an entire battalion...SUCCESSFULLY!!!...using "hi-tech" equipment found in any mail-order catalog or in walmart!!! The majority of the "casualties" we inflicted were with MORTARS...not direct fire, too!! Don't think that any other army can't do it too!!! As matter of fact...we were regularly ORDERED by JRTC HQ to back off and let em LIVE!! Optempo green was seldom employed(we called it "unleash the dogs of war")...because it normally rendered them combat ineffective in less than 8 hours!! Even at Optempo yellow( no attacking, just self-defense, and observation) they lost troops ...so we spent most of the time in optempo red(self-defense, clear the battlefield of our guys and leave them alone so they can reconstitute and survive)!! Why did we let them survive? Because a Battalion Commander's career ended if he let his unit get wiped out at JRTC!! Trust me!!! It is time to face reality here...and to understand that our army has NOT been proven in a sustained conflict since VietNam!! And it has NEVER been engaged in a nuclear, biological, or chemical laden battlefield!!!...just in WWI...and that was just in Mustard gas!!! and our casualties were MASSIVE to say the least!!! So wake up, dammit!!!

BTW...if you want a song...then try "Find the cost of Freedom" by CSNY!!!!

[mike stehr]

The US just needs to threaten whomever sponsers terrorism,

with the fact that a attack with a radiological device "dirty bomb" will be treated like a nuclear threat. And we will act accordingly, i.e 100 megaton intercontinental ballistic missles.

Yeah, It may esculate to a third world war, but they'll get vaporized first!

[forresthump2]

"First of all...Dubya is an oil monger...and that is what HE is all about!!"

This is a tired old Liberal attack with no basis in Economic fact. If the uninformed understood that oil companies and oil services companies for exploration and drilling make MORE profit when the price of oil goes UP then we wouldn't hear it. A higher and safer Oil supply makes the price go down, not up. W has been doing nothing but secure a higher oil supply like with Russia. Now explain to me how he's working instead to make money for oil companies when everything he's doing is to make the OIl supply safer and more oil for the US.

As far as military experience I suppose you prefer a President who wasn't a trained military pilot in the National Air Guard but who instead protested against the US on foreign soil. Slick Willy wasn't just an Evader but also a traitor.

Cattle Prod you need to know more before you spout Off. Iran even has turned over terrorists. The point is Iraq isn't just not cooperating but they sponser terrorism officially thru their Gov. They were the only Gov to publicly endorse the 9/11 attacks on US. Well the Taliban in Afghanistan too but look at the success there. You'll never learn following the Liberal leaders like a sheep. Liberals have no solutions, not even bad ideas. All they can do is critisize ideas and solutions and scare people for political advantage.

The US Gov is on the ball and the critics have no better solutions. Just critisism and shallow ideas and half truths. My main point is that you are behind the curve. Your outdated thinking can only go back to the previous complacency that got us hit in the first place. Then oil and 'nam. Give me a break. Al least come up with some new political Hack material. LOL

[NOSValves]

Well I'm not going to go over board on this subject. All I have to say to the ney sayers is. Have faith are young man and women alone with are fine technoligy we will prevail !! This is from a father with a 19 year old at Jump school as I type. We will kick there a$$es in the dirt just like before !! The key is not to go at this half heartedly like Vietnam. No holding back war is war !! They deserve what they get innocent or not ! If there stupid enough to follow a Idiot like Sadam then they made there own bed !!

Craig

[HDBRbuilder]

You guys are living in some kinda dream world.

A monger is a participant in the distribution and sale of something...my statement has NOTHING to do with politics...oil is his family business and will be his business again after he leaves office...their money did not come from selling Little Debbie treats!!!

nuclear war??? Are you insane??? Nobody wins a nuclear war...there are only SURVIVORS!!

As for being a pilot...yep...it is a helluva lot easier to be sitting at 30,000 feet OVER a battle, than to be a grunt IN a ground battle...especially when the defending enemy has tactically placed a little bit of VX ahead of their positions, so that you are forced to go into full MOPP4, while they are NOT!!

No matter how good our technology is, it is still the infantryman who is left with seizing and holding terrain!!

The next time you have been carrying a 75 lb+ rucksack, and a rifle, in a suit that causes you to dehydrate in just 70 degree temperatures( but YOU are in summer desert heat!!) faster than you can suck the water through a straw on your protective mask from your canteen to replenish yourself, while trying to shout orders at the top of your lungs, to people who can't hear you...or the same thing on the radio...and trying to see through fogged up mask lenses, while moving forward in the attack, and being unable to bring accurate fire on anybody with your weapon...not being able to eat until you are rotated back to the rear area to decontaminate yourself and your equipment...having to change your MOPP suit every so many hours because it has absorbed its limit and is becoming ineffective...etc...and all through this, the defenders are picking you and your buddies off like fish in a barrel...well...this isn't the kinda war you expected is it!!!!

VX is the chemical weapon of choice for a REASON!! It is fast acting, quickly breaks down in a few days so that you can counterattack through it safely with no need for protective gear, and is a LIQUID...so that it can be tactically spread ahead of a defensive position to route your enemy into your fields of fire!!..while you sit back, not needing to wear all that crap, and pick them off as they struggle in their gear towards you!!! The only time it acts like a gas is when it is misted from an aerial delivery system...by helicopter, or airburst from artillery or missile rounds(for example). All defenders need to to do is for one of em take a garden sprayer...put on his protective gear...and spray the ground ahead of the defensive position with it...that forces the attackers into their gear as soon as it is detected by them!! But some of em will die before they can get into their gear...if it makes skin contact or is inhaled as mist!! This stuff is DEADLY as hell...and Saddam has loads of it!!

This is NOT the kind of war we need to be cheering for!!!!! Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!

[forresthump2]

Bush is trying to do what is best for America and in advance of trouble and in the long run. It must be best to have him in the White House because he sure IS doing everything he can to make the Oil industry LESS money. If he let the mid east go down the tubes and have their oil spigots turned off like Iraq is Now that would be bad for Americans but GREAT for the oil companies. AGAIN the oil argument may be for the American people economic interests, BUT IT DOES NOT FLY THAT BUSH IS HELPING HIS OWN AND OIL BUDDIES INTERESTS. YA FOLLOW YET? LOL

You make a case to quit sitting on our hands with this Tyrant. Because a previous Slick Willy let Saddamn break a good peace treaty does not make it right to keep sitting on it. He will only get worse. THIS IS CALLED PROACTIVE THINKING PEOPLE! LOL

Fact is Saddamn has shot at our planes more than 3000 Times this year alone. We are still at war with Iraq. Have been ever since JAN 1991. Terrorism aside, Saddamn broke the treaty that Liberals were all for in 1991 and now he must comply or face the music. I hope they can disarm him without war too. But the only way to get him to comply is with threat of force and if he doesn't then he must face the music.

DO you think the blame America first and sit on our hands mentality is good for this country and not good for our enemies??? If SO smoke another Doobie and keep to yourselves. LOL

[HDBRbuilder]

I am ALL FOR getting rid of Saddam. I am ALL FOR ensuring the treaty is honored. I am ALL for an end to terrorism. I am ALL FOR the hoped for results of all this saber-rattling, too!!

But I am TOTALLY AGAINST a protracted ground war campaign there...because I KNOW that when Saddam gets his back against the wall...in his own back yard...we are gonna lose ALOT of LIVES in the process of it!! And...no matter how the people of Iraq feel about HIM, they will be defending their HOME from invaders!! No ifs, ands, or buts about it!! If he is cornered, with no other alternative in a ground war that he is LOSING, he will do what he was AFRAID to do the LAST time!! Remember...OUR retaliatory policy has CHANGED!! No longer is it to "retaliate IN KIND"! And he KNOWS THAT!!...as do the rest of the world leaders!! But if he is given no other alternative, he will do his damndest to hit us with every chemical weapon he has, and any nuclear stuff he MAY have, because he is well aware that we will nuke him off the face of the earth in retaliation!! But in his mind, he will be taking as many of us as he can in the process...and he will become a martyr to all of Islam, too!!

THAT IS MY POINT!! GET IT????

[forresthump2]

Well why didn't you say so in the first place. You came across to me as anti-American hippy. He-he Point is nam shouldn't be used as an excuse to not use our balls anymore. It should be a lesson that a war of restraint is only an oxymoron some Dem Moron politician could muster up. I'm with you and I think W is too. He knows that if the time comes when to delegate to the Joint Chiefs and they know how to do it right. Tech has come a long way only since the Gulf War.

Boston