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Just s bit more on TRANSIENTS

My System is mostly pro- sound equipment ...I am certain that some here will shudder being advised that I run a dBX 120 Subharmonic synthesizer and a Dynamic Range Expander at tims

This is where the power demands come from. Prolly still not more than 6 watts average

But you need Power Storage for PEAKS.
It will not be there in a Chip Amp You need TO 55 output devices

😀😀😀

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8 hours ago, henry4841 said:

?

 

Did not know I had an avatar but the Little Sweetie is a fantastic little amplifier designed by our tube guru Maynard tubefanatic. The sound brings me back to what I was hearing 60 or more years ago. 

 

I think he was referring to the Hi-Fi Fairy, the lovely young elf who's dusting my K402 tweeter horn in my avatar picture in the left margin of my posts.  If listening to the Little Sweetie amplifier could remind me of her, I'd say that it was a really fine amp.

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1 hour ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

MC generally are not High Damping Factor amplifiers

Do you think it will be a big problem with CW IV speakers.

I have also read that the damping factor was not high on this McIntosh amp and that to handle bass frequencies, it is better if the poweramp has a higher damping factor.

 

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9 hours ago, Quad Khorns said:

My God, after reading from the start of this thread till the end, I wanted to start weighing in about 8 pages ago on the discussion of SS vs. tubes. Not to support one side of the argument or the other, but to call out those self-appointed "experts" that vehemently argue that their position (equipment choices, or equipment philosophy) are the only correct path, and ridicule and belittle others who disagree with them. That actually pisses me off especially in such a subjective forum as audio. Everyone has their own experiences, opinions and tastes, and minds will not be changed by anything posted here - nor should they as personal tastes and how one wants to spend their money on audio is their right. NO ONE has the knowledge or credibility to scrutinize and criticize other's choices and preferences in audio equipment. When you start belittling and name calling you have lost the argument ... and all credibility.

 

 

I agree with about half of what you say there, and not at all with the other half.  Yes, in spite of all the measurements, home audio can still be pretty subjective, with some very dedicated fans of one type of equipment or another.  

 

Where I strongly disagree is with your statements that minds cannot be changed.  That suggests a closed mind, or even two or more factions, each with their own closed minds.  That's the opposite of what the Forum is about, as I see it, anyway.  We're here to exchange and share ideas, and to share the joy that our sound systems bring us.  Yes, I know that some guys would not ever want to admit to using the word "joy", when they're sober, anyway, but that's what great sound, or great bikes or cars, for that matter, can bring us.

 

Yes, belittling and name calling, in other than well-intended attempts at humour, bring down the level of everything good on the Forum, so that's obviously no good.  I'll mention something that I think I've only mentioned once before, a long time ago, so there should be no eye-rolling if I relate it again.  Here it is:  I've been a big motorbike fan since I was a teenager, and I still enjoy talking about them.  One day I got chatting with a co-worker, back when I was a millwright.  He told me that over a long period of time, he'd owned a BMW RT sport-touring bike, a Harley-Davidson Sportster, and a Honda Gold Wing.  He'd found that each one was a good bike, very effective at the type of riding it was intended for, and just what he liked when he'd owned it.  

 

What made him laugh was that each bike had its own group of dedicated, maybe dedicated to the point of being rabid, deadly serious fans.  As far as each group was concerned, their Chosen Bike was the greatest thing on two wheels, and anything else was pretentious trash, ridden by ill-informed suckers who either would benefit from hearing what they should be riding, or who were too far gone to learn anything at this point.  Sound familiar?

 

No, we don't have to get along, but it's a much better Forum if we do.  Also, there's so much that we can learn here.  As well as making friends, I've probably tripled what I knew and thought I knew when I first joined.  Let's keep it that way, friends.

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43 minutes ago, SpeedLimit said:

Do you think it will be a big problem with CW IV speakers.

I have also read that the damping factor was not high on this McIntosh amp and that to handle bass frequencies, it is better if the poweramp has a higher damping factor.

 

 

One of the benefits of larger speaker wire/cable is that the damping factor of the power amplifier is preserved more than it is with skinnier wires.  Although most of the Klipsch speakers are very sensitive, meaning that relatively small amounts of current are travelling through the speaker wires, it's still a good idea to go with at least 14 AWG, or even 12 AWG wires.  The difference in price is minimal, and this is one of those small details that can help bring out the best in your components.  In this way, when you're sitting and enjoying your music, you'll know that there's one less thing to think about taking care of.  Done!

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6 hours ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

Just s bit more on TRANSIENTS

This is where the power demands come from. Prolly still not more than 6 watts average

But you need Power Storage for PEAKS.
 

😀😀😀

Duke it is obvious I will not be able to convince you of the truth. And I do not need any drama on a social media forum so you can try as hard as you want to convince members I am wrong. On technical forums we do not deal in hype but truths. Transients, peaks will be shown on scope, that is what scopes are used for with much higher frequencies that audio ones so I am convinced Nelson Pass is speaking the truth when he says in his lab playing loud music the signal does not get out of a 1 watt window on peaks. Not a hard test to perform with someone that has test equipment and an electronic background to perform the test. Members can believe what you say or Nelson Pass an audio genius. Electronics does not lie. That being said I have never run the test myself using a scope. See no need, I trust what Nelson has shown to doubters. I like it now that you are saying approximately 6 watt average but I seriously doubt you are using that much with Heritage speakers on average. My test prove otherwise. Simple to do with a AC voltmeter which I have described previously on the thread. Play your music as loud as ever and just measure the amount of AC voltage you see on peaks. You can then use ohms law to calculate the true amount of power you are using. Just as an example for those that do not want to do the math. If you see 2.83 V's you are using 1 watt. If you see 6V's your usage is 4.5watts. Ten volts 12.5watts. Personally I stay under the 2.83V's on peaks with average usage much less, millivolts. With 6watts of power you will see 7V's AC on your meter if you believe you are using that much on average. I am doubtful you will see 7V's on peaks myself having performed the test many times myself before I was convinced. 

 

This is not to say one can turn the volume up to 7V's average and be shown on a  meter but I doubt you would be able to stay in the room with an average 6 watts with our speakers. You would have peaks much higher than 7V's AC. 

 

Personally I have nothing more to say on this thread concerning power usage. Members can trust facts and figures or hype. I have not seen any test you have performed but perhaps you are using the watts you are saying in a room in your home. How am I supposed to know. 

 

Let's be friends that disagree. 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Duke it is obvious I will not be able to convince you of the truth. And I do not need any drama on a social media forum so you can try as hard as you want to convince members I am wrong. On technical forums we do not deal in hype but truths. Transients, peaks will be shown on scope, that is what scopes are used for with much higher frequencies that audio ones so I am convinced Nelson Pass is speaking the truth when he says in his lab playing loud music the signal does not get out of a 1 watt window on peaks. Not a hard test to perform with someone that has test equipment and an electronic background to perform the test. Members can believe what you say or Nelson Pass an audio genius. Electronics does not lie. That being said I have never run the test myself using a scope. See no need, I trust what Nelson has shown to doubters. I like it now that you are saying approximately 6 watt average but I seriously doubt you are using that much with Heritage speakers on average. My test prove otherwise. Simple to do with a AC voltmeter which I have described previously on the thread. Play your music as loud as ever and just measure the amount of AC voltage you see on peaks. You can then use ohms law to calculate the true amount of power you are using. Just as an example for those that do not want to do the math. If you see 2.83 V's you are using 1 watt. If you see 6V's your usage is 4.5watts. Ten volts 12.5watts. Personally I stay under the 2.83V's on peaks with average usage much less, millivolts. With 6watts of power you will see 7V's AC on your meter if you believe you are using that much on average. I am doubtful you will see 7V's on peaks myself having performed the test many times myself before I was convinced. 

 

This is not to say one can turn the volume up to 7V's average and be shown on a  meter but I doubt you would be able to stay in the room with an average 6 watts with our speakers. You would have peaks much higher than 7V's AC. 

 

Personally I have nothing more to say on this thread concerning power usage. Members. How am I supposed to know. 

 

 

 

 

I hav several Hewlett Packard scope

But I care little abouly Specs

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3 minutes ago, SpeedLimit said:

And perhaps the damping factor of ma7200 is not very high due to the autoformers, don't you think so ?

I believe you are worrying too much about damping factor. I am sure the damping factor of a MAC is plenty enough with our speakers. For some examples look at the damping factor of some of Nelson Pass Firstwatt amplifier and most are very satisfied with the bass performance on these amps and simple circuit 2 or 3 stage class A amplifiers are not known to have a high damping factor as say a class A/B SS amplifier. What exactly is the published damping factor because I do not understand where you got milliamp usage to determine damping factor. 

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1 minute ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

But I care little abouly Specs

Does this mean yo do not want to know the truth? Just how is one to determine power usage if one does not use basic electronics and test equipment? Only way I know how to test the performance of an amp is with test equipment using basic electronic skills. I test all of my amplifiers before I am through with them. An ear can be fooled and the amp could be distorting and one will never know it unless they run some test. Happens all the time. Unless you are convinced to run some test you will never know the true power usage. Guessing and hype is just that. 

 

Home usage using our speakers require very little power. I hope all members consider quality over quantity when considering an amplifier with Klipsch speakers. 

 

I seriously doubt you believe what I say because you are making the discussion personal between us. No problem, I still want to be friends that disagree. 

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14 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

I believe you are worrying too much about damping factor. I am sure the damping factor of a MAC is plenty enough with our speakers. For some examples look at the damping factor of some of Nelson Pass Firstwatt amplifier and most are very satisfied with the bass performance on these amps and simple circuit 2 or 3 stage class A amplifiers are not known to have a high damping factor as say a class A/B SS amplifier. What exactly is the published damping factor because I do not understand where you got milliamp usage to determine damping factor. 

Forgot to post Firstwatt site showing damping factor. You will have to do some simple math described at the bottom of the page. https://firstwatt.com/prod.html

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6 hours ago, SpeedLimit said:

Do you think it will be a big problem with CW IV speakers.

I have also read that the damping factor was not high on this McIntosh amp and that to handle bass frequencies, it is better if the poweramp has a higher damping factor?

 

 

It will be fine.

No, after you add speaker wires and drivers, higher numbers are meaningless. DF is one of the most overrated specs in audio.

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Just now, SpeedLimit said:

you know what, i will let my McIntosh amplifier arrive and plug it to the 220 volts sector, and connect the speakers, and the listen to what he has in the body ...

I do not think you will be disappointed. Old reliable audio company for those that can afford them. You can depend on it lasting for decades as well. 

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13 hours ago, OO1 said:

myth 

 

How high is high?

Ever look at a chart showing amplifier damping vs actual damping with a driver voice coil?

Just more proof that people equate one spec to a performance area of stereo equipment that is not the whole story.

 

Some amplifiers by the nature of their design or topology happen to have a higher DF, doesn't mean it is a better sounding amplifier (including bass) than one with a lower DF.

I have owned many amplifiers with high, low, and really low DF, sometimes the bass is different, but I can't really say one is better in every way than the other.

 

I wonder if anyone has designed an amplifier based solely on producing the highest DF. For some reason images of listeners running from the room with their hands over their ears accompanies that thought.

 

Mr Toole's conclusion on the matter is - buying on amplifier based on DF is like buying a high performance car because it is red rather than black.

 

I would recommend a couple of subwoofers (or more) if someone wanted to get the best bass out of Heresy IVs and earlier versions.

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