what amp for cornwall IV

[Flevoman]

I find these discussions about wattage very interesting and enjoy following them as well. I also have questions about what works better and how different wattages affect the sound. Because I own a Decware Zen Triode (2.3 Watts), I've experienced how little wattage can make the speakers sound quite loud. I always keep the volume knob below 50% maximum. However, I still wonder, what difference will you hear (if any) when comparing two similar amplifiers? Let one amplifier deliver 2 Watts, and the other 50 Watts. Is there no difference in the sound? Nothing at all? Is the only noticeable difference the position of the volume knob?

[Islander]

In my experience, the higher wattage brings a greater solidity to the sound, especially in the bass, where the sound gains a feeling of more authority.

 

Of course, this assumes that all conditions are equal, as in the amplifier being the only change in a given system.  When comparing one system with another, the room size and dimensions are probably different, along with the speaker positioning.

 

I bring up speaker positioning because of the effect it has on both speaker sound quality and sensitivity.  I have the impression that to achieve their advertised sensitivity, most Heritage speakers should be located very close to or directly in two adjacent room corners.  If your room makes this inconvenient or impossible, the speakers will not be located in the ideal 1/8 space, but in 1/4 space, or maybe even in 1/2 space in extreme cases, far out into the room.  Most often, the speakers will be located in an approximation of one or two of these spaces.

 

Accordingly, in a listening room like mine, where neither speaker can be directly in a corner, due to a baseboard heater on one side and a large room opening on the other side, the speakers can't achieve their potential sensitivity.  As well, the speakers are voiced to sound correct when they're placed close to or directly in the room corners.  Chief bonehead is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Once these speakers are placed along a wall, rather than in a corner, their tonal balance will change, with the most noticeable effect being weakened bass.  This situation calls for the help of a subwoofer or two, just to regain the proper bass response, not to augment it.

 

I had wondered why some people are quite happy listening to La Scalas without subs, and had thought it was because of different tastes in music or the like.  However, thinking back, at least one LS owner posted a picture of his system with the speakers placed tightly in the room corners.  In that situation, his La Scalas would certainly produce more bass than mine, apparently enough to totally satisfy him.

 

This combination of factors makes it hard to compare one system with another.  In the absence of absolutes, we may just have to fall back on that inexact ranking by satisfaction level, maybe something like

 

1:  "I give up.  I'm buying Bose!"

 

2:  "Could be better.  A lot better."

 

3:  "Pretty good on a good day."

 

4:  "Really good, but could benefit from some upgrades."

 

5:  "This is it.  It's all I've ever needed or wanted."

 

Sound about right?

[OO1]

1 hour ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

 

I wonder if anyone has designed an amplifier based solely on producing the highest DF. For some reason images of listeners running from the room with their hands over their ears accompanies that thought.

  

  you're confusing high damping factor with loud  low quality sound  ,  an amplifier with high DF + matched  speakers produces less distortion from the LF  , it's a punchy , tight ,  precise bass at any volume level  , regardless of subs .

[Shakeydeal]

3 hours ago, Flevoman said:

I find these discussions about wattage very interesting and enjoy following them as well. I also have questions about what works better and how different wattages affect the sound. Because I own a Decware Zen Triode (2.3 Watts), I've experienced how little wattage can make the speakers sound quite loud. I always keep the volume knob below 50% maximum. However, I still wonder, what difference will you hear (if any) when comparing two similar amplifiers? Let one amplifier deliver 2 Watts, and the other 50 Watts. Is there no difference in the sound? Nothing at all? Is the only noticeable difference the position of the volume knob?

The position of the volume knob is irrelevant. You are conflating power with gain. You can have a 2 watt amplifier with the potentiometer at 12:00 and a 100 watt amp at 3:00 with the exact same in room SPL because they both have different front end gain structures.

 

The difference will be that one actually sounds different than the other.

[KT88]

About damping factor, autoformers and Mcintosh, also Nelson Pass comments.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/mcinformer.30240/

 

I wouldn't worry too much about damping factor, it leads to absurd technical values that have nothing to do with sound quality under normal circumstances. If damping factor was so extremely crucial then every tube amp on the planet which is not OTL would have to be thrown on the scrap heap.

Here you can read the relevance of DF from the professionals PA perspective, Wire length counts more to them than the DF of an amp.

https://eaw.com/amplifier-damping-factor-more-is-better-or-is-it/#:~:text=Amplifier damping factor (DF)is,stop the cone from moving.

[82 Cornwalls]

20 hours ago, OO1 said:

  you're confusing high damping factor with loud  low quality sound  ,  

 

Wrong I have owned amplifiers with high DF, some were really good and others not, just like lower DF amplifiers.

 

I was making a point (which somehow I knew you would miss) that it's not a good idea to throw a dart at a board with only high DF amplifiers on it and think that it doesn't matter which one the dart hits it's going to be awesome as if choosing the best amplifier for a pair of speakers and individual taste is that easy.

Yes I'm fully aware that many amplifiers with good bass also have high DF, but there are also amplifiers that don't have impressive DF numbers and yet they have good solid bass.

 

You repeat that high DF will give tight punchy bass without giving a number of where the line is between high and not high, good bass and not so good bass. How high is high? If you are telling someone to base their purchase on a spec they need to know.

 

DF I will go with well known amplifier designers and what the real numbers show (amplifiers don't work so good without speakers hooked up).

 

[Shakeydeal]

I agree with @82 Cornwalls

 

No two amplifiers with the same power rating are created equal. You can take a 100 watt receiver and compare it to a high quality 20 watt amp (tube or SS, your choice) on appropriate speakers and I predict the smaller amp will walk all over the "more powerful", cheaper one.

 

And I have heard many tube amps (which almost always have a lower DF) that had better bass response than higher powered SS amps. Not every time, but that's a given.

 

The take away here is don't put all your eggs in the "specs and measurements" basket. You might be fooled most of the time.

[82 Cornwalls]

I have gone down in power and gained better bass more than once, but all things were obviously not equal. Not one thing on spec sheet would have caused me to expect going down was actually going up in sound quality.

 

Had a pair of demanding @90 dB, 4 ohm, dual 10" speakers that had better bass with a 15 watt parallel SE sweep tube amplifier than some @100 watt solid state I tried. Didn't see that coming, decided to try it after running a vg 100w ss on the woofers (110hz x-o) and the tube amplifier from there up. The bass wasn't better with the tube than the vg solid state amplifier, but it was close enough for me to just use the PSE. Would any 15- 20 watt tube amplifier have performed the same? NO

 

Obviously I don't listen at dance club levels.  

[OO1]

10 hours ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

 

Wrong  .

 

PWK used the BGW 250  high DF amp since 1974   , replacing tube amps   ,  the Chief in Office since 1986  recommends high DF amps to klipsch Forum members .  I will take that statement as the right answer  

 

[Shakeydeal]

Quote

I will take that statement as the right answer  

 

The right answer is the one that sounds right. Nothing else matters.

[82 Cornwalls]

1 hour ago, OO1 said:

 

PWK used the BGW 250  high DF amp since 1974   , replacing tube amps   

 

No doubt one of the better amplifiers, only because of its DF I'm sure.

 

Did he use a BGW 250 at home or just at work?

 

So 230 is high enough?

[OO1]

1 minute ago, 82 Cornwalls said:

 

So 230 is high enough?

230 was back in the 70's  ,  2023  ....up to 1000 or more  

[82 Cornwalls]

10 minutes ago, OO1 said:

230 was back in the 70's  ,  2023  ....up to 1000 or more  

 

Got it, good in '74, rubbish now. lol

 

Poor guy was born at the beginning of the wrong century.

He wouldn't have wasted his time with all those tube amplifiers and that horrible low DF solid state pile of junk from the 70s. 

[the real Duke Spinner]

Me Crown MacroTech  w DF 500 I'd a dry sounding amp

On 10/31/2023 at 7:26 AM, henry4841 said:

Does this mean yo do not want to know the truth? Just how is one to determine power usage if one does not use basic electronics and test equipment? Only way I know how to test the performance of an amp is with test equipment using basic electronic skills. I test all of my amplifiers before I am through with them. An ear can be fooled and the amp could be distorting and one will never know it unless they run some test. Happens all the time. Unless you are convinced to run some test you will never know the true power usage. Guessing and hype is just that. 

 

Home usage using our speakers require very little power. I hope all members consider quality over quantity when considering an amplifier with Klipsch speakers. 

 

I seriously doubt you believe what I say because you are making the discussion personal between us. No problem, I still want to be friends that disagree. 

 

[henry4841]

9 hours ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

Me Crown MacroTech  w DF 500 I'd a dry sounding amp

 

Exactly why did you post the amplifier you are using on one of my post. I have no desire to have a conversation with someone being irrational not believing in test, data, facts and truths. Find someone else to annoy. 

[kpp]

If you move a bit farther back from the speakers the bass will be better. 15" woofers need several feet to focus the bass waves. 

[Shakeydeal]

4 hours ago, kpp said:

If you move a bit farther back from the speakers the bass will be better. 15" woofers need several feet to focus the bass waves. 

Agreed. And not only that, but you need distance for the drivers to integrate. Horns don’t make good near field monitors.