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Why should I have a separate 2 channel amp?


gigantic
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Well, this thread has certainly taken a life of its own... 
I'm not sure that I've been swayed one way or the other by the arguments presented pro or con, however, I'm picking up a 40 year-old NAD 3020 this evening for $90. It will likely need a refurbishment, e.g., a squirt of DeOxit in the pots, refreshed capacitors and hopefully not, the dreaded power transistors, which, if its made it this far, have been rectified. as shown in the photo I posted earlier in the thread, my Heresies aren't entirely ideally placed; in a perfect world, I'd have them about 10-12 feet apart, in corners, but that's not possible without entirely rearranging the room and incurring the wrath of my partner and cats for obscuring window access for her plants and their views of the birbs... so, to possibly improve on the staging, my thought would be to place satellite speakers in the corners of the listening space, to accent the staging for both 2-channel and 5 channel, with the Heresies doing the heavy lifting with the 3020. 

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18 minutes ago, gigantic said:

I posted earlier in the thread, my Heresies aren't entirely ideally placed; in a perfect world, I'd have them about 10-12 feet apart, in corners, but that's not possible without entirely rearranging the room and incurring the wrath of my partner and cats for obscuring window access for her plants and their views of the birbs... so, to possibly improve on the staging, my thought would be to place satellite speakers in the corners of the listening space, to accent the staging for both 2-channel and 5 channel, with the Heresies doing the heavy lifting with the 3020. 

I imagine your room and placement is going to effect the sound more than an external amp. Your Heresies are rated 99dB @2.8v/1 meter and (imo) at best when level-matched will sound the same as your AVR. At worst you are going to introduce unwanted noise that you are going to have to remedy. That's my take but it doesn't hurt to experiment esspessially if your a tinkerer. Good luck!

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On 9/20/2022 at 5:16 AM, Shakeydeal said:

I've commented on this topic before, so the regulars can keep scrolling if they like....😄

 

Islander made some good points about the dirty little secrets of AVRs. He is right that the power supply in a receiver isn't capable of supplying rated power to all channels at once.

You may be correct, but I posted a link above to my previous AVR and it was well built and supplies pleanty of power for most Klipsch speakers and has a good processor. I still think the way to look at it is how much power do your speakers require and what do you want up front? Some AVRs are the perfect fit in one unit ESPESSIALY if you are into multichannel music or movies. {NOTE: I realize this is the 2-channel section, but...}

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I messaged the seller of the NAD 3020 and it turned into an epic snipe hunt. I went to the address I was given and the young man who answered the door, looked at me like I was crazy. I messaged the seller and they ghosted me, although I could see that they'd read my missives. $90 for an NAD 3020 was too good to be true, anyway.

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On 9/21/2022 at 3:59 AM, Shakeydeal said:

OP, see above post for example of amp=amp thinking. I know, I know, it’s comical, but I say let ‘em have their fun…..

Yes and "fun" is what people call out other people when they themselves have never designed an amplifier.

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On 9/21/2022 at 9:48 AM, Zen Traveler said:

Why do you see it as comical? It was a sincere effort of comparing apples to apples when it comes to power. 

I was, and still am, learning to follow the expression: "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference." I just don't argue too much, and I DO know the difference!

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On 9/21/2022 at 12:36 PM, Shakeydeal said:

I don't use a "processor". But it doesn't matter. Whatever preamp you put in front of any two amps will "color" them equally. As long as the preamp stays the same, the difference you hear is in the amplifier.

That should have read: "The difference you THINK your hear" is the real "difference." Many people have been humbled by a controlled listening session with an AB/X box. But you go on convincing yourself that your Quasi-religious experiences about amplifiers are technically or economically valid! To quote Paul W. Klipsch Himself: "BULLSHIT."

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On 9/21/2022 at 5:39 PM, Islander said:

If it were true that all solid state amplifiers sound the same, the perfect amplifier would have been built decades ago, but somehow they keep improving, sounding better, but with varying flavours of "better".  And yes, the more expensive amplifiers tend to sound better.  They're built with better quality, more carefully selected parts, and often have superior circuit designs.

On this I agree, but it's because of better DEVICES (IC's and Transistors) along with better circuit designs that create that difference. Sticking my original point about using 2 channels of a modern AVR works just fine with Klipsch Heritage. Room and positioning will make more sonic difference than believing older technology is better. YES, all of this is MEASUREABLE too, and not merely another unsubstantiated internet opinion in an echo chamber created by other people high on opinions with the typical 99.9% Opinion vs. 0.1 percent verifyable FACTS. 

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On 9/21/2022 at 9:51 AM, Joecoulson said:

Maybe because you say that if SS is to be used, that it doesn’t matter to have an AVR type amplifier vs the separates. That is comical.  

Your opinion has no basis. Another cheap shot while hiding behind a keyboard, like all the internet people with opinions stated without proof............................something PWK didn't approve of.

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On 9/21/2022 at 2:07 PM, Shakeydeal said:

I'm sorry, but I am dismissing receivers out of hand. They are fine for car crashes and dinosaur stomps, but have no place in a high fidelity system. Before anyone gets too worked up, the usual disclaimers apply; YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc.........

And the bullshit keeps on rolling along.......................you have to equalize variable in order to have a valid comparison, which, clearly, the naysayers here do not do.

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On 9/22/2022 at 5:54 AM, henry4841 said:

What can I say, those newer chip amps sound really good. Instead of tube computers we now use a computer designed around a chip, or as some call them a processor. 

Many PhD's (mostly from Japan) who are chip designers and integrators that have touted the superiority of IC's vs. discretes for years. As a former Printed Circuit board designer, I would throw in PARASITICS as root cause of all the minutia of differences that may or may not exist. Either way, I was a pioneer of Surface Mount Technology, which has yielded smaller electronic assemblies with much better signal performance by minimizing the presence and subsequent effect of parasitics. Too bad existing and future word parasitics with negative contributions can't be filtered out on the web.

 

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Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:

Either way, I was a pioneer of Surface Mount Technology, which has yielded smaller electronic assemblies with much better signal performance by minimizing the presence and subsequent effect of parasitics.

Must have good eyes and do not sneeze for those diy'ers playing with those things. Wave of the future for sure. My last phono preamp was all surface mount. 

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1 minute ago, henry4841 said:

Must have good eyes and do not sneeze for those diy'ers playing with those things. Wave of the future for sure. My last phono preamp was all surface mount. 

I had one of the very first SOT-23 in my hand in 1980 when designing the motherboard for the world's highest capacity hard drive at that time. Originally, SO stood for "Swiss Outline" because it was used in early electronic watches (remember the Bulova Accutron?). I wrote the very first article published in the SMTA newsletter, but I can't remember what year, all before the internet was born. In production, you can't beat the modern "chip shooters" that can "speed plop" into solder paste at 15-30 components per SECOND with 0.1 mm precision and repeatablity. The only thing we should consider COMICAL (the latest word by a few here), with verifyable PROOF,  is looking at hand wired tube amplifiers that are 40 dB Noisier than modern Solid State gear!

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38 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I was, and still am, learning to follow the expression: "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference." I just don't argue too much, and I DO know the difference!

Funny thing about fools is that they are the last ones to learn new tricks and the first ones to defend what they KNOW to be right. You are on a roll today Claude. Question, why should someone who has actually done things have an opinion more valuable then bloviators who have not? Just asking for a friend.

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14 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Question, why should someone who has actually done things have an opinion more valuable then bloviators who have not? Just asking for a friend.

LOL. I even attended a direct radiator based loudspeaker design showcase yesterday in Grand Rapids (about 20 people total). I was amazed at the overall Quality of sound from small boxes and small drivers. Each speaker got equal time, set at 83 db level, playing the same songs, regardless of size.

 

However, 90% of them could not be played too loud, or their distortions became self evident. No horns were there, and there was some impressive, creative cabinet work with a few very clever designs. We all agreed that none of this would be possible today without the existence of free/cheap computer design tools for speakers/crossovers and measuring equipment. We've come a long way from the $20,000 required for a TEF system in the 70's, that's for sure.

 

The most impressive sounding speaker was using the latest Carbon Diaphragm woofer and tweeter drivers, with Twin opposing shallow 12" Subwoofers in a beautiful slim box that went down to 23 Hz. Guess what? The Canadian/Asian kid (28), a computer programmer, used Hypex 3-way, class D amps in the back of the box. He was the clear winner and the only one who could reach Klipshorn Level outputs. He did say he needed 14 db of boost at the low end to do it, however. Funny part is, the "kid" called it a Bookshelf speaker. Moral of the story, he needed about 500 unclipped class D watts to reach highest output when we asked him to "turn it up."

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11 minutes ago, billybob said:

Depends on the AVR, and the dedicated separate as to quality of reproduction...

 

Yep. I learned way-back-when that my RF-7s had a jagged frequency response curve, with a couple of impedance dips below 4 Ohms (I also remember reading 3 Ohms, but don't think that was confirmed) and above what would be crossed over to a sub. It seemed that finding a power source rated for 4 Ohm speakers was needed/beneficial since I like to listen loud. That could be a reason so many RF-7 owners would benefit from a seperate amp but also upper-end AVRs (especially THX Ultra II UNITS) fit the bill and that's the route I took.

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