Looking for some tips for my CW4

[Flevoman]

Good day,

I've owned the CW4 for a few months now, I think they sound very nice, but I'm still looking for things to improve. For example, I would like to see the placement of the voices and instruments a little better. I now find the placement quite vague, and the sound seems to come more from the speakers instead of a holographic image that is placed between the speakers. I remember the Heresy 2 did this very well again.

 

The current placement/listening position is somewhat like an isosceles triangle. Speakers are 3.5 meters apart (measured from the center of the speaker), and listening position is also 3.5 meters from the speakers. I towed in the speakers so that they look almost straight at me. Point of intersection is slightly behind the ears. Speakers are pressed tightly against the plinth (2 cm from the wall)

 

Before I move / adjust everything and try things out, I'm looking for some tips that I can use as a guide to improve the holographic image. Do you have some tips for me what I can use?

[LTusler]

I would think you need to get them at least 30 cm from the wall.

[Flevoman]

 

The reason I placed them against the wall is that the CW-4 lacked bass in the beginning.

I red somewhere that placing against the wall will increase the bass. 

Anyway, I will give it a try.. Thank you 👍🏻

[OO1]

  here is the way I do it , 

 

 place the  CW speakers in the corner of the walls  just like you would place a set of khorns  , and I do mean snug  against the corner to take full advantage of the walls  , so an  X  pattern  

[Shakeydeal]

Move them out from the wall. Start with 1 ft., but 2 is better.

[Flevoman]

Well, this is how I have my setup right now. 

The only difference is that I don't have any corners for my speakers. 

So they are placed against the long wall of the room, and I am sitting at 2/3 in the middle of the room.

Somewhat like this picture, but without the walls on the left and right side. 

 

 

[Shakeydeal]

Also, try sitting farther back. Those horns need some distance to integrate. That alone will make the soundstage more holographic. Don’t worry about a perfect triangle.

[Flevoman]

This will be harder to do. 

I can move the sofa maybe 40cm more to the back wall, but that will be the limit. 

Will give it a try though, just to know what it will do. 

 

Maybe a dumb question, but why move the speakers away from the wall? 

They don't have a bassport or a radiator on the back. 

Al the music is coming from the front. 

So I don't see why moving the CW4 away from the wall can effect the soundquality 

[Shakeydeal]

54 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

This will be harder to do. 

I can move the sofa maybe 40cm more to the back wall, but that will be the limit. 

Will give it a try though, just to know what it will do. 

 

Maybe a dumb question, but why move the speakers away from the wall? 

They don't have a bassport or a radiator on the back. 

Al the music is coming from the front. 

So I don't see why moving the CW4 away from the wall can effect the soundquality 

 

It will give you more of a sense of depth. The localization to the

 face of the speakers won’t be as pronounced.

[Idontknow]

In my opinion, while doing my own comparisons using my Forte 1's, reviews say to keep them away from walls but I disagree. I think they sound much nicer against the wall but others can be the judge themselves and decide. Some listeners talk about adding subs but subs are doing the same thing by reflecting bass off the floors and walls, so what's the difference. Some talk about moving speakers from the walls but that causes you to lose bass, then they add subs to make up for the lack of bass they already got rid of by moving the speakers away from the walls, so none of it makes much sense to me.  Speakers naturally give off more bass the closer they are to the walls just in general. 

 

I have two different videos here. Anyone can wear a pair of earbuds or headsets and the "relative" differences in bass away and close to the walls which are pretty striking and the mids and highs don't sound mottled or compromised in my opinion. Yes! The two rooms are different but that's the point. Upscale Audio are pros at setting up their own rooms to the optimal settings, so in theory, their room should sound better than mine does in the second video plus the fact that they are using the newer Forte IV's which in theory are suppose to be better but I disagree there as well. 

 

You can skip to 0:30 of this video.

 

 

You can skip to 4:00 to begin the song. 

 

[jcn3]

@Idontknow - thanks for putting together your video. Your setup sounds great! I tend to agree with your setup philosophy. 

 

@Flevoman - my experience with Heritage speakers is with Heresy 1s, Chorus 1s, and Cornwall IVs - all in my 10x15 room.  For all,of them, I got the best results with them in or near corners, toed in so that they cross in front of the listening position. This has given me a huge soundstage, good bass, the the best imaging.  I agree with @Shakeydeal that you don't need to worry about getting an equilateral triangle.  I'd try spreading your speakers a little further apart and toeing them in more. Would love to know how it turns out for you.

[Flevoman]

Thank you guys.

It's a busy day today, but I have moved the speakers 30cm from the wall now.. 

They were 10cm from the wall, not 2cm what I said in my first post. 

So the difference is only 20cm. 

I want to give this a try for some days before I draw my conclusions and try something else. 

But my first impression is positive 

It seems like that it has improved the holographic soundstage. 

Bass seems a bit thinner now but still fine. 

The music seems to be a bit more realistic. 

But I want to be sure it is really improved or it's just happening in my mind 😏

I find it hard to believe that moving the speakers 20cm from the wall really can make a noticeable difference 

 

[Idontknow]

I don't know much about acoustics or internal tech like others here and I figure since most argue about it anyway, I just acquire as much gear as I possibly can and just listen to what sounds good to my ears in my own room. The Forte uses a passive woofer on the rear as all of you know, but whenever a kick drum sounds off, the front woofer pushes the sound wave forward while the passive woofer moves backwards, so I don't hear what the problem is. 

[Idontknow]

3 hours ago, Flevoman said:

Thank you guys.

It's a busy day today, but I have moved the speakers 30cm from the wall now.. 

They were 10cm from the wall, not 2cm what I said in my first post. 

So the difference is only 20cm. 

I want to give this a try for some days before I draw my conclusions and try something else. 

But my first impression is positive 

It seems like that it has improved the holographic soundstage. 

Bass seems a bit thinner now but still fine. 

The music seems to be a bit more realistic. 

But I want to be sure it is really improved or it's just happening in my mind 😏

I find it hard to believe that moving the speakers 20cm from the wall really can make a noticeable difference 

 

 

That's good. I'd just experiment and just choose what sounds good to you.  Personally, I think there's just too many factors to worry about, so I don't bother myself with it. Just play the music and listen. In my industry with telescopes, beginners get way too caught up in tech. It's actually quite arrogant. They have no experience using telescopes and they're arguing over wavefronts. They wouldn't even know what a wavefront looked like. 

[Flevoman]

Final update. 

The first thing I've noticed when i pulled the speakers a bit further away from the wall was a bit more definition, a bit better holographic image, and I had the feeling that sometimes I really could hear real depth with some instruments and sometimes the instruments where next to the speaker. It was almost if the music was more realistic now. This was something new to me. I was a bit surprised how much difference I could hear with only 20cm more from the wall. And I was wondering if I was making things up or was there really a notacible improvent.

That night I couldn't stop listening to all kind of music. It was one of my most enjoyable music evenings since a long time

 

The next day, set up was still the same, the effect was less noticeable. 

And till now this is how it is. 

I have the idea there is some improvent with how the speakers are right now. But I have no idea if I was making things up that first night or if I'm am used to the improvement already. Anyway.. Moving away from the wall seems to give some improvent..... I think 🙄

[KT88]

Flevomann, my contribution is about the spatiality of listening, less about the volume of the bass. First of all, when the speaker is moved a bit away from the wall, it often sounds often more spatial, the sound can "breathe" better. But, for example, my Lascala are so deep themselves that they are against the wall. I would just experiment it where it sounds best within your margin. As for bass fullness, sometimes moving one of the speakers a few inches to the left or right on the wall works wonders. Just give it a try. Your room has a different resonance at each point and the effect is sometimes impressive. You can try with both speakers to move them a little to the left or right. I don't mean away from the wall or closer to the wall, just move them a little on the line, just a few cm. 

i don't know the CW4 but with other speakers, especially LaScalas but also big Tannoys and small LS3/5a i have learned the following effect concerning holography, imaging and soundstage. I don't angle the speakers as much as you do. With the Lascala, I can clearly see the inner sidewall from my listening position when I have the best effect for the stage. If the speakers are angled in too little (or even completely parallel), the stage becomes too wide and lose and two dimensional, like a line from left to right. But if I angle in so much that I only see the front of the speakers, it is no longer spatial, but everything overlaps which can be confusing and it allows not so good the listening of the placement of instruments. Just try to position both speakers in a way that you can still see the inner side wall and experiment with angling in a bit more or angling out a bit more. Sometimes it is good to listen to a position for a few hours, sometimes you know immediately when it is wrong or right.

If you have found the right angle then try again to move the speakers closer to the wall or further away, we are talking just cm but you can try the extrem points of your scope at first. and then try the possibilities in between..

[KT88]

I forgot one more point, the best and spatially accurate speakers cannot sound good in this respect if they are not the same distance from your ears. I measure the distance from the wall to the speaker exactly, with a laser or a tape measure, so the inner distance and the outer distance which is further away by the angle. This sounds pedantic but it really helps.

[mikebse2a3]

On 12/30/2022 at 4:13 PM, Flevoman said:

Good day,

I've owned the CW4 for a few months now, I think they sound very nice, but I'm still looking for things to improve. For example, I would like to see the placement of the voices and instruments a little better. I now find the placement quite vague, and the sound seems to come more from the speakers instead of a holographic image that is placed between the speakers. I remember the Heresy 2 did this very well again.

 

This description gives strong indications that you have strong early reflections which indicate poor speaker locations and possibly listener location issues as well. If you have any large cabinets or furniture between the loudspeakers look for those to be causing you issues. 

 

 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 4:13 PM, Flevoman said:

The current placement/listening position is somewhat like an isosceles triangle. Speakers are 3.5 meters apart (measured from the center of the speaker), and listening position is also 3.5 meters from the speakers. I towed in the speakers so that they look almost straight at me. Point of intersection is slightly behind the ears. Speakers are pressed tightly against the plinth (2 cm from the wall)

 

What are your rooms length, width and height dimensions …?

 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 5:11 PM, Flevoman said:

The reason I placed them against the wall is that the CW-4 lacked bass in the beginning.

I red somewhere that placing against the wall will increase the bass. 

 

Placing against a wall will increase bass but can also lead to increased modal issues as well as potential issues with a smooth balanced response in the 20Hz - 300Hz region so distances from boundaries needs to balance the bass extension along with the even more important frequency response smoothness in the 20Hz - 300Hz region which is the foundation and contains vital fundamentals of most all instruments and vocals.

 

Even if you can’t leave the speakers located out into the room (several feet from boundaries if necessary to start with) it is well worth placing them there as an experiment until you get good imaging with a natural tonal balance and vocals that sound very realistic. You will know when you are getting close to these goals when the speakers on good stereo recordings totally disappear as the sound sources and actually appear to be silent within the soundstage. Once you achieve reasonably good imaging and soundstage then you can start moving the speakers closer to the boundaries while trying to maintain the imaging and tonal balance. 

 

When you get the smoothest response in the 20Hz - 300Hz region by proper loudspeaker distance to boundary placements required by your room dimensions and acoustical properties it can be surprising at times that you have the extended bass you originally thought would be lost if the loudspeaker is not against a boundary.  

 

We might could help more if you care to provide us with pictures of your setup/room otherwise its like we are working in the blind and deaf as well as we are not able to hear what you experience while we are giving our recommendations… 😄

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

[jjptkd]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:03 PM, Flevoman said:

Final update. 

That night I couldn't stop listening to all kind of music. It was one of my most enjoyable music evenings since a long time

 

The next day, set up was still the same, the effect was less noticeable. 

 

 What equipment are you using? Equipment matching can be a huge factor for soundstage and imaging. Also your listening position could be in a dead spot for bass I typically find having my seat against the back wall yields the best bass maybe get up and walk around the room while music is playing, behind your seat etc to see if / where bass improves. 

[Shakeydeal]

I have tried Fortes and Cornwalls in corners. Yes, the bass output increased, but that's about the only positive thing I can say. Bass quality was reduced. And in corners they just sound like speakers. Away from the corners they sound like music.