Cornwall 4 vs Lascala AL-5

[mikebse2a3]

5 hours ago, Flevoman said:

@mikebse2a3 That's what I call a listening room.
Very impressive...
And with the speakers placed so far apart, are all the instruments and vocals still sharply defined in their proper positions?

 

@Flevoman The speakers are spaced about 13ft/3.96m center to center (ie: tweeters) and the listener location is approximately 9ft/2.74m from the plane of the speakers (ie: tweeter).

 

IMHO on good recordings both Vocals and Instruments are realistically focused and the sense of locations in the sound stage are very natural in width and depth with a pretty holographic feeling on some of the best recordings. On some recordings I do feel like the piano for example might feel magnified some while others are fine but if I place the speakers closer together at the next best (SBIR) speaker location spread (@ approximately 11ft/3.35m) then I feel like on some recordings the piano is a little to small so my preference is for a natural or slightly larger than life piano for example. Image/Soundstage Depth on some of my recordings can feel like it goes back nearly 20ft/6m and my room width is nearly 20ft and Image/Soundstage can often fill that space when appropriate yet if I play a mono recording it is very tight and focused in the center between the loudspeakers. The speakers truly  appear to be silent while the music is playing all around them on good recordings.

 

I enjoy this setup so much that I recently mapped my room/setup so that has I experiment with different setups, loudspeakers and room acoustic arrangements I wanted to absolutely and easily be able to recreate this setup relatively easily. 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KT88]

There is a German rock band from the 1970s, the guys are still together today and recorded a new album in the Covid era. The band is called Kraan. They were even known in the States in the late 70s. The bass player played a Rickenbaker bass with a plectrum back then. The sound was incredibly dry, powerful and unique. When I think back to live concerts from that time, today LaScala can reproduce that fire and those super fast attacks.

Here is a live recording from 1974. This is pure LaScala music, also because it does not go so deep in the frequencies, but fully trumps in the LaScala spectrum.

 

 

And why I like still like them a lot 50 years later, here is how they sound today.If you like rock with some rockjazz and fusion elements. LaScala music😀

 

 

 

[KT88]

11 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

@Flevoman The speakers are spaced about 13ft/3.96m center to center (ie: tweeters) and the listener location is approximately 9ft/2.74m from the plane of the speakers (ie: tweeter).

 

IMHO on good recordings both Vocals and Instruments are realistically focused and the sense of locations in the sound stage are very natural in width and depth with a pretty holographic feeling on some of the best recordings. On some recordings I do feel like the piano for example might feel magnified some while others are fine but if I place the speakers closer together at the next best (SBIR) speaker location spread (@ approximately 11ft/3.35m) then I feel like on some recordings the piano is a little to small so my preference is for a natural or slightly larger than life piano for example. Image/Soundstage Depth on some of my recordings can feel like it goes back nearly 20ft/6m and my room width is nearly 20ft and Image/Soundstage can often fill that space when appropriate yet if I play a mono recording it is very tight and focused in the center between the loudspeakers. The speakers truly  appear to be silent while the music is playing all around them on good recordings.

 

I enjoy this setup so much that I recently mapped my room/setup so that has I experiment with different setups, loudspeakers and room acoustic arrangements I wanted to absolutely and easily be able to recreate this setup relatively easily. 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mike, next time when I'm in the States I'll bring you some good German beer as a ticket so I can experience your set up for an hour and with a coffee, if you'll allow it.🙂

 

[mikebse2a3]

4 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Mike, next time when I'm in the States I'll bring you some good German beer as a ticket so I can experience your set up for an hour and with a coffee, if you'll allow it.🙂

 

 

You will always be welcome at my place Heinz.. 👍🙂

[Chief bonehead]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:43 PM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

@Flevoman The speakers are spaced about 13ft/3.96m center to center (ie: tweeters) and the listener location is approximately 9ft/2.74m from the plane of the speakers (ie: tweeter).

 

IMHO on good recordings both Vocals and Instruments are realistically focused and the sense of locations in the sound stage are very natural in width and depth with a pretty holographic feeling on some of the best recordings. On some recordings I do feel like the piano for example might feel magnified some while others are fine but if I place the speakers closer together at the next best (SBIR) speaker location spread (@ approximately 11ft/3.35m) then I feel like on some recordings the piano is a little to small so my preference is for a natural or slightly larger than life piano for example. Image/Soundstage Depth on some of my recordings can feel like it goes back nearly 20ft/6m and my room width is nearly 20ft and Image/Soundstage can often fill that space when appropriate yet if I play a mono recording it is very tight and focused in the center between the loudspeakers. The speakers truly  appear to be silent while the music is playing all around them on good recordings.

 

I enjoy this setup so much that I recently mapped my room/setup so that has I experiment with different setups, loudspeakers and room acoustic arrangements I wanted to absolutely and easily be able to recreate this setup relatively easily. 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One of those is off by a half an inch……

[mikebse2a3]

43 minutes ago, Chief bonehead said:

One of those is off by a half an inch……

 

That was before I leveled them 😄

[KT88]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:43 AM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

@Flevoman The speakers are spaced about 13ft/3.96m center to center (ie: tweeters) and the listener location is approximately 9ft/2.74m from the plane of the speakers (ie: tweeter).

 

IMHO on good recordings both Vocals and Instruments are realistically focused and the sense of locations in the sound stage are very natural in width and depth with a pretty holographic feeling on some of the best recordings. On some recordings I do feel like the piano for example might feel magnified some while others are fine but if I place the speakers closer together at the next best (SBIR) speaker location spread (@ approximately 11ft/3.35m) then I feel like on some recordings the piano is a little to small so my preference is for a natural or slightly larger than life piano for example. Image/Soundstage Depth on some of my recordings can feel like it goes back nearly 20ft/6m and my room width is nearly 20ft and Image/Soundstage can often fill that space when appropriate yet if I play a mono recording it is very tight and focused in the center between the loudspeakers. The speakers truly  appear to be silent while the music is playing all around them on good recordings.

 

I enjoy this setup so much that I recently mapped my room/setup so that has I experiment with different setups, loudspeakers and room acoustic arrangements I wanted to absolutely and easily be able to recreate this setup relatively easily. 🙂

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be clear, Mike, these SBIR points are not general? It is not a standard distance of the speakers, but it is related to your specific room and its dimensions?

[henry4841]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:42 PM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

That was before I leveled them 😄

What I call a serious audiophile. 

[mikebse2a3]

2 hours ago, KT88 said:

To be clear, Mike, these SBIR points are not general? It is not a standard distance of the speakers, but it is related to your specific room and its dimensions?

 

Heinz,   

 

SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response) as well as LBIR (Listener Boundary Interference Response) are a situation created by the physical distance of the Speaker (SBIR) or Listener (LBIR) to all room boundaries (ie: Walls,Ceiling,Floor) and can be calculated/correlated to certain Frequency Wavelengths. Basically the Reflections create audibly constructive (SPL Peaks) and destructive (SPL Dips/Nulls) that are experienced by the listeners. In the (~20Hz to ~300Hz region) the effect is at its strongest in typical home listening rooms. While this is experienced in practically all home listening rooms there are methods available to minimize the interference as well as to use it in beneficial ways when dealing with the rooms unique acoustical standing waves/room modes issues we all have.

 

I believe it helps to think of early boundary reflections especially as imaginary loudspeakers that in reality act as real loudspeakers that are generally a somewhat distorted version of the loudspeaker that generates them. They have Frequency, Timing and SPL distortions that when audibly combined with the Loudspeakers Direct Response at the listener will make or break the reproduction from the system as experienced by the listener. It’s the Listening Room Sound being imposed on top of the Loudspeakers Sound. If we imagine that we had created the Perfect Loudspeaker and then as we place it in the room (ie: with it’s Boundaries and Acoustical Properties) the room’s reflections/sound will be imposed upon and color the loudspeaker sound the listener will experience and for most typical home listening rooms the Sound Reproduction the listener experiences from (~20Hz - 300Hz region) is so heavily dominated by the Room that even the “Perfect Loudspeaker” cannot overcome it but we can minimize the effects...!!!

 

miketn

 

 

[KT88]

8 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Heinz,   

 

SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response) as well as LBIR (Listener Boundary Interference Response) are a situation created by the physical distance of the Speaker (SBIR) or Listener (LBIR) to all room boundaries (ie: Walls,Ceiling,Floor) and can be calculated/correlated to certain Frequency Wavelengths. Basically the Reflections create audibly constructive (SPL Peaks) and destructive (SPL Dips/Nulls) that are experienced by the listeners. In the (~20Hz to ~300Hz region) the effect is at its strongest in typical home listening rooms. While this is experienced in practically all home listening rooms there are methods available to minimize the interference as well as to use it in beneficial ways when dealing with the rooms unique acoustical standing waves/room modes issues we all have.

 

I believe it helps to think of early boundary reflections especially as imaginary loudspeakers that in reality act as real loudspeakers that are generally a somewhat distorted version of the loudspeaker that generates them. They have Frequency, Timing and SPL distortions that when audibly combined with the Loudspeakers Direct Response at the listener will make or break the reproduction from the system as experienced by the listener. It’s the Listening Room Sound being imposed on top of the Loudspeakers Sound. If we imagine that we had created the Perfect Loudspeaker and then as we place it in the room (ie: with it’s Boundaries and Acoustical Properties) the room’s reflections/sound will be imposed upon and color the loudspeaker sound the listener will experience and for most typical home listening rooms the Sound Reproduction the listener experiences from (~20Hz - 300Hz region) is so heavily dominated by the Room that even the “Perfect Loudspeaker” cannot overcome it but we can minimize the effects...!!!

 

miketn

 

 

Thanks for the very vivid explanation, Mike. It makes a lot of sense to see a speaker always as a vibration exciter, which organizes desired and undesired interactions with a room. Especially if you imagine that early reflections can't really be "fought" with e.g. an eaualizer or delay. As you say, it's the shadow ghosts of the loudspeaker that you have to deal with so that they don't become evil ghosts. An example where one must find a constructive solution by means of an arrangement with the room and we cannot fight against physical principles.

 

Did you determine the optimal points of the distance of the speakers to each other and to the listener in your room experimentally, e.g. by moving the speaker and the listening position or with a calculation formula into which you enter all data of the room and whose answer shows the optimal points?

[mikebse2a3]

9 hours ago, KT88 said:

Did you determine the optimal points of the distance of the speakers to each other and to the listener in your room experimentally, e.g. by moving the speaker and the listening position or with a calculation formula into which you enter all data of the room and whose answer shows the optimal points?

 

Heinz, ….. I use empirical methods relying on listening experiences combined with some test recordings that have proved extremely helpful. Whether it’s placing loudspeakers/listener or acoustical treatments the complexity ultimately requires listening to verify the results..!!!

 

Heinz….. I haven’t found any measurements programs or calculation program/formulas that can be trusted to give you the optimal points when setting up a system in a room. While they can be helpful tools in some ways they can also easily send you in the wrong directions if you don’t understand their limitations and because they simply don’t take into account all the combined factors involved in optimizing the Loudspeaker/Room/Listener integration.

 

miketn

 

 

 

[sixspeed]

The finish on those LaScala's is gorgeous.

 

Enjoy them in good health!

[Deang]

We need an intervention for Mike. I’ll drive. 

[babadono]

On 6/15/2023 at 5:58 PM, Chief bonehead said:

One of those is off by a half an inch……

don't tilt your head..the imaging will be shot

[Troll]

On 6/3/2023 at 7:22 PM, Flevoman said:

So you own the CW4 and you have heard the AL-5.

Beside the difference in bass, what difference did you hear between these speakers? . 

Is the mid that much better on the AL-5 compared to the CW4? 

I have heard both and ended with the AL5s and here’s why.  First, I grew up seeing/hearing LaScalas in venues so they are a beasty must have icon in my brain.  Second, the voicing scale is larger and spot on without the boom.  I often listen with subwoofer off, better for longer intervals, and I can enjoy the music longer.  Turning the bass down on CW4s isn’t the same. The bass is absolutely there with the AL5s and can really thump with attenuation but it’s not the shake the house frequencies I get from the SPL-150 which I also love but not for all listening.  I use the sub for jam time and movies, but heavy bass as you know causes high frequency masking/distortion so it just depends on what part of a soundtrack you want to be able to pay attention to.  Having the capability but separate control is my current preference.

 

However make note of klipsch statement about the CW4: “Only the Klipsch Jubilee, Klipschorn and La Scala (with their horn-loaded, low-frequency designs) exceed the Cornwall in bass extension and output.”

 

So there’s more to it than just the low end specifications.  Also probably depends on your preference of listening level.  As Roy Delgado says, big horns in little rooms is the name of the game.

[Troll]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:56 AM, Flevoman said:

Funny that you mention this. Because besides the La Scala that is for sale, there's also a possibility that I can buy someone's Khorn AK-6.
He actually just placed them against the long wall of his living room, with one side of each speaker not against a wall.
According to him, this should work fine with this latest Khorn.
Something that my hi-fi dealer also confirms.
But on the internet, I still hear/read messages that the Khorn is not intended for this.
Still, it's quite important for me to clarify this, as I would have to place them the same way if I do indeed buy the Khorn.

Same day I compared Cornwalls to AL5s I also heard the K-horns, all current models, in the same room.  Although easily adjustable I found the k-horn high end to brash at the same eq, while I absolutely loved the AL5.  Nobody actually listens flat so that would not concern me but I wish dealers would dial in their best eq for each speaker and room.  If I had a dead room the k-horns would be more appreciated but could dial back the top end I’m sure to suit my taste.  Could also have simply been the height of the drivers too, but I did walk around and sit and noticed the same.  I did notice more k-horn bass than AL5s but not worth the size and placement, price being equal, and knowing what I could do with eq and sub.  Next stop is jubilee’s for me hopefully!

[Troll]

On 6/14/2023 at 9:47 AM, KT88 said:

I have to agree with those who say there should only be one pair of speakers in the room. The CW4s work like two giant bass absorbers with their bass reflex ports. They are practically exactly like those bass traps some people put up against unwanted frequencies. Only that here desired frequencies might fall victim. If it's not too much trouble, I'd put them in another room for a day.
As for the sound of the AL5. Yes, the ear gets used to some things in a very amazing way. But there are also sound additions that you can't get used to. On the contrary, some undesirable characteristics of some speakers or rooms can even become more annoying over time. It remains to be seen...I personally have "LaScala ears" :-).

I am very curious about your experiences and impressions. Especially if you go back to the CW4 after a week or so, that would interest me the most. I feel like I find radial speakers quite obfuscated after being spoiled with a full horn for a longer period of time.

 

Another quick question. Did you put the rubber pads underneath to protect your floor from scratches or because you think it improves the sound of the AL5?

Interesting as an accident actually I noticed my AL5s driving the cone of my SPL-150 while turned off.  Yamaha ships their NS-5000s with concentric foam for the port to tune the bass, so wonder if just sticking foam in the Cornwall ports when not in use would stop them from “eating bass” when trying to compare them to AL5s in the same room.  Also begs for “cone lock” feature, since too many tricks in play when going room to room comparing or costing time to switch pairs.  It’s been easy enough though for me to just use A/B on amp to understand the either or and the combined sound, which isn’t remarkably different at different locations and positioning around the room.  Once the AL5s are where desired, I’d try the Cornwalls inside, outside and staggered with A/B comparisons, then I’d put the Cornwalls in line with couch used as surrounds and call it a wonderful day!

[Troll]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:41 PM, Flevoman said:

Moving the CW4 is really too much hassle. I could throw a thick rug over it if that's advisable. But I can't and don't want to drag them back and forth.

 

By now, I know myself well enough to know that I need time to adjust to any change in my system. Only later do I realize that I will come to appreciate the adjustment. Unfortunately, it seems I have a difficult musical brain 🙄. Knowing this, I don't want to say too much about my first impression, as there's a good chance it will be completely different in two weeks.

However.... 😌, with that in mind, if I can tentatively provide an initial reaction based on how I currently experience the LaScala, I prefer the CW4 for now. I hope it's due to my combination of components, still finding the right positions, etc... but I find the sound quite dark, which is contradictory to say because it does sound dynamically and detailed. However, I have this urge to pull a kind of cover off the speakers to make it sound light and open again.

The placement of vocals and instruments is currently less precise compared to the CW4. This will probably improve with some shifting and experimenting, as it took a while for everything to fall into place with the CW4.

I miss the bass less than I expected, but on some songs that I know well on the CW4, I find the LaScala sounding somewhat weak. I sincerely hope I can get it right because I can hear that the LaScala has a lot of potential.

On TIDAL, I've come across a few songs that sounded incredibly tight and dynamic. The CW4 could never achieve that.

What you are experiencing in my opinion is the bigger midrange levels from the bass horn, giving you more dynamic response to mids, but also the horn loaded woofer.  If you are bi-wiring/amping, alternately unplug the top and bottom cabinets and listen.  Surprisingly most of the music my ears tune into that I love from the AL5s comes from the bottom cabinet in my opinion.  The top cabinet reminds me of an AM radio, also lovely but I laughed when I experienced it.  Enjoy!

[Troll]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:49 PM, Flevoman said:

@mikebse2a3 That's what I call a listening room.
Very impressive...
And with the speakers placed so far apart, are all the instruments and vocals still sharply defined in their proper positions?

There IS no proper position.  Recording engineers don’t place those instruments in 2 channel.  That’s just an artifact of rooms and speaker design.  If you get used to the saxophone of a particular recording at +6,+3 X,Y axis where 0,0 is dead center from listening position, just know that no recording engineer expects that.  They know that lots of speakers image differently and they test recordings on a variety, using hardware and software.  No artist “intended” it to be at +6,+3.  Just saying for clarity.  Enjoy the art of reproduction!  Artists love to hear their songs on different systems, none being right or wrong. 

[Troll]

On 6/20/2023 at 5:37 AM, KT88 said:

Thanks for the very vivid explanation, Mike. It makes a lot of sense to see a speaker always as a vibration exciter, which organizes desired and undesired interactions with a room. Especially if you imagine that early reflections can't really be "fought" with e.g. an eaualizer or delay. As you say, it's the shadow ghosts of the loudspeaker that you have to deal with so that they don't become evil ghosts. An example where one must find a constructive solution by means of an arrangement with the room and we cannot fight against physical principles.

 

Did you determine the optimal points of the distance of the speakers to each other and to the listener in your room experimentally, e.g. by moving the speaker and the listening position or with a calculation formula into which you enter all data of the room and whose answer shows the optimal points?

Commercial installations use FIR to deal with room issues with good success.  Can’t change football stadiums to fit the speakers.