Lascala AL5(possible with sub) or the Khorn AK6 (against a long wall)

[Islander]

Since your speakers are used, could it be that the tweeters are blown, so the speakers are missing the sparkle they should have?  If someone plays the speakers extremely loud for long periods, the tweeters are usually the first part to fail.  Have you confirmed that they're working?

 

It's easy to check.  Put on some music with high frequency content, then use a very thick cloth, like a non-fluffy towel folded over until it's not much bigger than the mid horn.  Cover the mid horn and listen for sound from the tweeters.  That will muffle the K401 horn (with the older models with the open horn, one would stuff a towel right into the horn to muffle it, but the grille cloths on the newer Scalas prevent that) and let you hear the tweeters more easily.

[KT88]

@Flevoman how are things going on? Do you now like your AL5?

[sixspeed]

I only skimmed through this but honestly if you don't like the sound of the LS AL5s and/or they don't work well in your room you shouldn't force yourself to like them. One thing is genuinely liking something and its a another getting used to it or adapting to acceptance. When you make the kind of investment a pair of new AL5s cost you should be utmost satisfied, if you aren't especially after going through the many useful tips from some of the other members here, placement, electronic front end etc. than I would honestly return them especially since you seemed to be happy with the CW4s and enjoy those in your room. The room is a HUGE factor. Arguably the biggest for what speaker will work or won't.

 

If the music isn't making you feel something either and you aren't getting into it or aren't being wowed by the sound at least once in awhile on amazing source material and all you can do is analyze/decide if you like what you are hearing then I'd get rid of them. Enjoy the CW4s or maybe try something like a JBL 4367 instead. Try a new SS integrated.

 

Seems that some long time LS owners prefer the late model LS IIs and although I haven't heard them in person, the new AL5s appear to have a thicker midrange than can sound almost muffled at times combined with weak bass compared to the fuller response KHorn, CW and Fortes. I know I prefer the AK5 KHorn to the new AK6 model. Both in look and sound. The AK6 and AL5 have different drivers and crossovers with a new voicing. For 2ch the LS sounds best not too far away from a wall otherwise the bass in enemic. 1ft-2.5ft seems to work best on them.

 

As others have said, you could have bad drivers for all you know. Generally though bad compression drivers are pretty easy to hear when they start to clip, distort, breakup, static pops etc. especially when amp/front end has been ruled out or they sound super rolled off. I will say as well that it took at least 500 hours of actual playtime before something like a new built LS or KHorn is truly broken in. The woofer loosens up and the compression drivers break in. They just do everything better.

 

I personally don't subscribe to the trope of high efficiency horns, that you HAVE to use tube amps either. This is entirely dependent on the listeners sound signature preference and in large part what kind of music one likes.

 

A nice mellow SET is all about the presence and immediacy with genres like Jazz or easy listening female vocals at modest volumes at best. You aren't gonna be able to blast some 80s new wave or some EDM banger on them, they will sound awful. SETs are more of a 1 trick pony amp with a very distinct sound and a seductive midrange for people that enjoy audiophile easy listening stuff most of the time. I honestly prefer my SS even for late night low volume Jazz sessions.

 

Perhaps try some SS integrateds. Something like a Pass INT-60, McIntosh MA5300, Bryston B135³ or Accuphase E-380. Pass and Accuphase also have Class A integrated options as well. I can attest to all 4 of those brands sounding amazing with Heritage. The newer Mac amps no longer have that veiled, mushy sound anymore they sound 100x better than their old stuff. I ran the MA5200 with the KHorn for a couple years and it was the best integrated amp I had owned up to that point by a long shot. Heritage is very revealing with high quality amplification.

 

Good luck and hope you truly find something that makes you happy with your system and sound. We've all been on that journey

[KT88]

14 hours ago, sixspeed said:

I only skimmed through this but honestly if you don't like the sound of the LS AL5s and/or they don't work well in your room you shouldn't force yourself to like them. One thing is genuinely liking something and its a another getting used to it or adapting to acceptance. When you make the kind of investment a pair of new AL5s cost you should be utmost satisfied, if you aren't especially after going through the many useful tips from some of the other members here, placement, electronic front end etc. than I would honestly return them especially since you seemed to be happy with the CW4s and enjoy those in your room. The room is a HUGE factor. Arguably the biggest for what speaker will work or won't.

 

If the music isn't making you feel something either and you aren't getting into it or aren't being wowed by the sound at least once in awhile on amazing source material and all you can do is analyze/decide if you like what you are hearing then I'd get rid of them. Enjoy the CW4s or maybe try something like a JBL 4367 instead. Try a new SS integrated.

 

Seems that some long time LS owners prefer the late model LS IIs and although I haven't heard them in person, the new AL5s appear to have a thicker midrange than can sound almost muffled at times combined with weak bass compared to the fuller response KHorn, CW and Fortes. I know I prefer the AK5 KHorn to the new AK6 model. Both in look and sound. The AK6 and AL5 have different drivers and crossovers with a new voicing. For 2ch the LS sounds best not too far away from a wall otherwise the bass in enemic. 1ft-2.5ft seems to work best on them.

 

As others have said, you could have bad drivers for all you know. Generally though bad compression drivers are pretty easy to hear when they start to clip, distort, breakup, static pops etc. especially when amp/front end has been ruled out or they sound super rolled off. I will say as well that it took at least 500 hours of actual playtime before something like a new built LS or KHorn is truly broken in. The woofer loosens up and the compression drivers break in. They just do everything better.

 

I personally don't subscribe to the trope of high efficiency horns, that you HAVE to use tube amps either. This is entirely dependent on the listeners sound signature preference and in large part what kind of music one likes.

 

A nice mellow SET is all about the presence and immediacy with genres like Jazz or easy listening female vocals at modest volumes at best. You aren't gonna be able to blast some 80s new wave or some EDM banger on them, they will sound awful. SETs are more of a 1 trick pony amp with a very distinct sound and a seductive midrange for people that enjoy audiophile easy listening stuff most of the time. I honestly prefer my SS even for late night low volume Jazz sessions.

 

Perhaps try some SS integrateds. Something like a Pass INT-60, McIntosh MA5300, Bryston B135³ or Accuphase E-380. Pass and Accuphase also have Class A integrated options as well. I can attest to all 4 of those brands sounding amazing with Heritage. The newer Mac amps no longer have that veiled, mushy sound anymore they sound 100x better than their old stuff. I ran the MA5200 with the KHorn for a couple years and it was the best integrated amp I had owned up to that point by a long shot. Heritage is very revealing with high quality amplification.

 

Good luck and hope you truly find something that makes you happy with your system and sound. We've all been on that journey

sixspeed, thank you for your wonderful contribution. Regarding tubes, especially SET vs sand amps, after almost 30 years of tube listening I enjoy very much a self restored Quad 34/306 combo purchased for less than 600€ altogether with my 1977 LS and my 2008 UJ, currently with a passive xover, but I have two 306 now and I will try them with the UJ using my Yamaha SP2060 going active. Tubes are nice but as you say low power SET are limiting the kind of music I like regardless how efficient a speaker may be. My MC275 is comparable with the Quad 306 in terms of power but astonishing is how close they sound, so I go with the 306 since a year. The Quads have a special circuit, called current dumping, which lets them shine at the lowest power output as well as on full blast.

[Flevoman]

23 hours ago, KT88 said:

@Flevoman how are things going on? Do you now like your AL5?

Nice that you're asking.
Coincidentally, I tested the speakers against each other today and was already planning to do an update.

Exactly one week ago, I rotated my entire setup 90 degrees to hear how the speakers would sound that way.
The speakers were now playing in the lengthwise direction, and I had more than three meters behind my listening position.
As I mentioned before, in my normal setup, I have a very annoying resonance in the midrange.
The music also doesn't separate from the speakers.
What I noticed when the speakers were placed lengthwise was that my biggest problem was almost gone.
I still felt some form of resonance in certain songs, but I can't say for sure if it's part of the recording, due to the acoustics, or simply cabinet or horn resonance.
I had already received many tips and help from @mikebse2a3 to assist me with the acoustics and speaker placement.
I decided to leave everything as it was for now. Unfortunately, this cannot be a permanent setup because I'm limited by my living space. But I decided to do nothing for a week and just listen. This way, I could get used to how the Klipsch La Scala sounds, which will be useful when I test and experiment again.

And that moment was today, listening to the La Scala for several hours every day for a week. And although I feel they're not performing optimally yet, they sound very pleasant... absolutely.
Today, for the first time in a long time, I connected my Cornwall speakers again.
First, I listened to the La Scala for an hour, and then the CW4.
By the way, this was also the first time I heard the CW4 playing with lengthwise placement in the room.
What struck me as a difference between these two speakers:
- The CW4 sounds definitely fresher, crisper...
As if the treble knob is turned up a bit more.
I still think the La Scala sounds a bit dark in terms of sound. I'm getting used to it, but as soon as I switch to the CW4, it becomes immediately noticeable again.
- The CW4 definitely creates a better holographic image for me. The speakers disappear, and I hear a stage of instruments and vocals.
The La Scala presents a fine midrange and then gives a strong sense that the rest is coming from the left and right.
I have no doubt that this can still be improved, but I am convinced that the CW4 is simply better in this regard.
- The CW4 naturally goes deeper in the low end, you can hear it clearly... but the low end is also much more present. Honestly, for my taste, it's too much. I'm not a bass head, and it would be nice if the La Scala had a deeper low end, but I definitely prefer how the LS low end sounds.
- The La Scala has a noticeably larger midrange, and it also seems like the resolution is slightly higher than the CW4. It's just a bit more open.
When listening to the CW4, it sounded slightly less open (these are big words for small differences, by the way).
- I found the La Scala to sound more lively/dynamic than the CW4.
Now that I heard the CW4 again, it sounded a bit dull (again, big words for small differences).

If I can solve the annoying resonance issue and allow the speakers to perform better by fine-tuning, as @mikebse2a3 has given me a lot of information about, then the La Scala will be the ones to keep.
It may sound bizarre to say this about speakers that cost 17k, but I hear the potential they have; now I just need to fully realize it.
I do share the opinion that I read somewhere before in a review: these are not easy speakers.

 

The speakers are now back in their original position, in the middle of the long wall because someone from an audio store is coming on Friday with bass traps and acoustic panels to see how it will turn out. I'm very curious, and of course, I'll let you know

[Flevoman]

16 hours ago, sixspeed said:

I only skimmed through this but honestly if you don't like the sound of the LS AL5s and/or they don't work well in your room you shouldn't force yourself to like them. One thing is genuinely liking something and its a another getting used to it or adapting to acceptance. When you make the kind of investment a pair of new AL5s cost you should be utmost satisfied, if you aren't especially after going through the many useful tips from some of the other members here, placement, electronic front end etc. than I would honestly return them especially since you seemed to be happy with the CW4s and enjoy those in your room. The room is a HUGE factor. Arguably the biggest for what speaker will work or won't.

 

If the music isn't making you feel something either and you aren't getting into it or aren't being wowed by the sound at least once in awhile on amazing source material and all you can do is analyze/decide if you like what you are hearing then I'd get rid of them. Enjoy the CW4s or maybe try something like a JBL 4367 instead. Try a new SS integrated.

 

Seems that some long time LS owners prefer the late model LS IIs and although I haven't heard them in person, the new AL5s appear to have a thicker midrange than can sound almost muffled at times combined with weak bass compared to the fuller response KHorn, CW and Fortes. I know I prefer the AK5 KHorn to the new AK6 model. Both in look and sound. The AK6 and AL5 have different drivers and crossovers with a new voicing. For 2ch the LS sounds best not too far away from a wall otherwise the bass in enemic. 1ft-2.5ft seems to work best on them.

 

As others have said, you could have bad drivers for all you know. Generally though bad compression drivers are pretty easy to hear when they start to clip, distort, breakup, static pops etc. especially when amp/front end has been ruled out or they sound super rolled off. I will say as well that it took at least 500 hours of actual playtime before something like a new built LS or KHorn is truly broken in. The woofer loosens up and the compression drivers break in. They just do everything better.

 

I personally don't subscribe to the trope of high efficiency horns, that you HAVE to use tube amps either. This is entirely dependent on the listeners sound signature preference and in large part what kind of music one likes.

 

A nice mellow SET is all about the presence and immediacy with genres like Jazz or easy listening female vocals at modest volumes at best. You aren't gonna be able to blast some 80s new wave or some EDM banger on them, they will sound awful. SETs are more of a 1 trick pony amp with a very distinct sound and a seductive midrange for people that enjoy audiophile easy listening stuff most of the time. I honestly prefer my SS even for late night low volume Jazz sessions.

 

Perhaps try some SS integrateds. Something like a Pass INT-60, McIntosh MA5300, Bryston B135³ or Accuphase E-380. Pass and Accuphase also have Class A integrated options as well. I can attest to all 4 of those brands sounding amazing with Heritage. The newer Mac amps no longer have that veiled, mushy sound anymore they sound 100x better than their old stuff. I ran the MA5200 with the KHorn for a couple years and it was the best integrated amp I had owned up to that point by a long shot. Heritage is very revealing with high quality amplification.

 

Good luck and hope you truly find something that makes you happy with your system and sound. We've all been on that journey

Thank you for your response.
I understand what you're saying, and I share your opinion.
However, I also notice that you seem to be drawing some incorrect conclusions (or maybe I'm misunderstanding you).
I do hear things in the La Scala that give me a WOW feeling.
They can sound incredibly dynamic with certain songs (which I love).
Well, I've already mentioned some more things above about how I think they sound.
But they are great speakers.
I'm just dealing with an annoying acoustic problem, and indeed, as you said, if I can't solve this, it would be better for me to keep the CW4 (which I also think sounds great).
Unfortunately, returning them to the audio store is not an option. I would simply have to offer them as a used item, but that's not a problem. The price I paid was fair, and I hope it won't come to that, but if necessary, I can sell them again without much loss.

 

If what you're saying is true and it takes 500 hours to fully break in the speakers (honestly, I'm not quite convinced of this myself), then they still have 250 hours to go 😉

Regarding your amplifier suggestion, thank you for the tips, I will definitely keep them in mind!! However, coincidentally, I tried a solid-state amp briefly this weekend. I have to be honest, it wasn't an expensive amplifier, priced around €800, but I wasn't really impressed. Everything sounded good, but I felt like it lacked liveliness. When I reconnected the Decware Zen triode afterwards, I immediately had that feeling of "Yes!!... This sounds so much better." I will certainly give a solid-state amp another chance in the future, but for now, the tube sound is what makes me the happiest 😁

[Shakeydeal]

My gut feeling is that you should just keep the CW IV. You shouldn't have to work that hard to hear the improvements of a speaker that is ~8K more.

[Flevoman]

Well, the thing is I own them both. 

So I can give it a try as long as I want. 

No need to rush things to come to a conclusion. 

There are still some options on the table. 

And the problem is an acoustic problem, has nothing to do with the speaker itself. 

But your correct, it is possible that I will end with the CW4 and I have to sell the LS, or store them in the garage for the "who knows what will happen in the future". 

 

[Islander]

Flevoman, have you tried just turning up the treble when listening to your AL5s?  That might produce the sound you're seeking.  Some people think tone controls lessen the purity of the signal passing through the preamp, but in the real world, tone controls can be just what you need in some situations or with some recordings.

[henry4841]

On 6/28/2023 at 2:34 PM, Flevoman said:

Well, the thing is I own them both. 

So I can give it a try as long as I want. 

No need to rush things to come to a conclusion. 

There are still some options on the table. 

And the problem is an acoustic problem, has nothing to do with the speaker itself. 

But your correct, it is possible that I will end with the CW4 and I have to sell the LS, or store them in the garage for the "who knows what will happen in the future". 

 

Very interesting observation guys. We are hearing first hand a comparison from someone who owns and is comparing the sound of two of Klipsch's high end Heritage offerings and he is preferring the lesser priced mid horn of the Cornwall 1V over the newer LaScala AL5 from what I am understanding of what he is saying. I hope the Klipsch engineers are taking note of this. I have not heard either speakers. My old '86 LaScala's are nothing like the AL5's so I have no idea how the new LaScala sounds but I find no fault with mine. Very interesting guys and something to consider if in the market for a new heritage speaker. Could save you a lot money buying the Cornwall over the LaScala. Fact is you will not go wrong with either but money is money these days. This means nothing, being sound is subjective and your room is not like Flevoman's, without personally owning and listening to both speakers in your setting but is worth taking note of what one person is saying here on this forum. 

 

[Flevoman]

17 hours ago, Islander said:

Flevoman, have you tried just turning up the treble when listening to your AL5s?  That might produce the sound you're seeking.  Some people think tone controls lessen the purity of the signal passing through the preamp, but in the real world, tone controls can be just what you need in some situations or with some recordings.

 

Thank you for your input.

However, when I made the comment about finding the sound of the La Scala darker than the CW4, I was unaware that I had an acoustic issue. It turned out to be a combination of bothersome resonance and the slightly less clear sound of the LS (because the La Scala indeed sounds less bright). By placing the speakers lengthwise or reverting to my old setup with the couch pushed all the way back, the resonance/thickening in the midrange is nearly eliminated. As a result, the speaker sounds quite different, and the perception of a "dark sound" is much less pronounced.

It is indeed a fact that the LS AL-5 sounds less bright than the CW4, which became immediately apparent when I recently compared both speakers. I cannot definitively say which one is better. The CW4 could sometimes sound a bit too sharp with my 2A3 tube amplifier, for example. Now that I have been listening to the LS for a longer period without any acoustic issues, I find the sound to be very pleasing and it is my preferred choice over the CW4.

 

Regarding your treble suggestion, unfortunately, it's not possible. My tube amplifier doesn't have that option 😉

[Flevoman]

1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

Very interesting observation guys. We are hearing first hand a comparison from someone who owns and is comparing the sound of two of Klipsch's high end Heritage offerings and he is preferring the lesser priced mid horn of the Cornwall 1V over the newer LaScala AL5 from what I am understanding of what he is saying. I hope the Klipsch engineers are taking note of this. I have not heard either speakers. My old '86 LaScala's are nothing like the AL5's so I have no idea how the new LaScala sounds but I find no fault with mine. Very interesting guys and something to consider if in the market for a new heritage speaker. Could save you a lot money buying the Cornwall over the LaScala. Fact is you will not go wrong with either but money is money these days. This means nothing, being sound is subjective and your room is not like Flevoman's, without personally owning and listening to both speakers in your setting but is worth taking note of what one person is saying here on this forum. 

 

 

Ummm... Well... Euhhhh... It's a bit more nuanced.
Now that I know how the LS can sound without the resonance in the mid-range, I can draw a more accurate comparison.

 

Both mid horns do indeed sound different.
The CW4 sounds somewhat brighter.
The LS sounds grander and has slightly more dynamics.
They're not world-shattering differences, but definitely noticeable.

[henry4841]

Exponential vs Tractrix horn?

[Flevoman]

Perhaps?..
I do remember i also noticed the same thing when i changed from CW3 to CW4 , CW4 was a bit brighter

[sixspeed]

On 7/1/2023 at 8:35 AM, henry4841 said:

Exponential vs Tractrix horn?

 

I don't think it's that. The new AL5 and AK6 are just voiced different. New tweeter, changes to the horn cabinet, new wiring etc.

 

But the tweeter horn on them is specifically mentioned as Tractrix though where as the previous era was not in specs.

 

The K-77Ds still essentially used the classic tried and true EV-35/Alnico tweeter horn. The New K771s the horn is different and on the new ones they are connected at the top of the mid horn and the front baffle of the tweeter horn sticks out a bit to the top of the mid horn. I'm no acoustic engineer but that change always struck me as an odd design choice.

 

There are no blend issues between the tweeter and the midhorn on the AK5/LSII so the small gap between them wasn't noticeable as they were perfectly seamless when playing. Both were also matched phenolic diaphragm compression drivers where as the K771 uses different materials compared to the K55-X driver and specifically mentions the newly designed tweeter horn as well. Klipsch also definitely did some changes to the exponential K55-X midhorn as well. So the end result is a different sounding speaker. When you add it all up.

 

IDK, if it's not broken, don't fix it. The LS II was a damn fine good speaker as was the K-77D tweeter. I would have just updated the new look to the LSII and put the new sealed bass horn cabinet on the KHorn and left them alone.

 

IMHO of all the new models I think they did the best job on the Forte IV, both value for $ and sound.

 

Porting the Heresy was also a mistake and makes using it as a center channel far more difficult as does placing near a wall in 2ch use more cumbersome due to the port. If you want more bass just add a sub. The Heresy was meant to be a sealed speaker.

 

The Cornwall, Heresy, KHorn and LaScala all changed a lot compared to their previous generation pre-2018.

[henry4841]

I did not realize the Heresy is now a ported speaker. I generally think bigger horn, bigger, better sound but Flevoman sure likes his Cornwalls. Most do not have the luxury of having both Cornwall and Lascala to compare with each other. Sealing the back of K-horns and porting the Heresy, wonder if PWK is turning in is grave?

[Flevoman]

If I may continue thinking about this topic for a moment.

And this is purely hypothetical.

 

The high and mid horns are the same between the LaScala and Klipschorn, right?

Logically, I would assume that only the bass section makes the difference between these two speakers.

If I place the Klipschorn against a long wall, not with one side against the wall but like how I currently have the LaScala set up. So, with the back of the speaker against the wall, horns facing me, and slightly angled so that the intersection point is just behind my listening position.

Logically, I would think that the mid and high frequencies would sound exactly like how the LaScala sounds now, considering they have the same drivers, horns, and placement.

Knowing that the Klipschorn doesn't perform optimally because it's not in the corners, it should still sound better in the low frequencies compared to the LaScala, and the mid and high frequencies would be the same.

So even with this incorrect way of placing the Khorns this way it should still outperform the lascala. 

 

Is this a plausible assumption, or am I drawing incorrect conclusions?

[henry4841]

49 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Is this a plausible assumption, or am I drawing incorrect conclusions?

I believe you assumptions are right except for the fact the K-horn mid and treble horns are higher in the K-horn It does make a difference in the sound you hear. In general terms, the K-horn being taller should sound slightly better. Certainly different. Not enough difference IMHO to matter that much though for someone considering buying either speaker.

 

From your testing and reviewing of the Cornwall avs Lascala I lean towards the Cornwall as best buy when price is considered. Big difference in price between LaScala and Cornwall now. I consider the bass plenty good enough with either speaker. Different sure but both have outstanding bass. Treble pretty much the same as well. The difference is the mids where music lives. The better sounding mid is what I would want to buy. 

[Marvel]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

If I place the Klipschorn against a long wall, not with one side against the wall but like how I currently have the LaScala set up. So, with the back of the speaker against the wall, horns facing me, and slightly angled so that the intersection point is just behind my listening position.

Refer to the pic I posted on page 2... khorns are flat against a long wall. They must have liked them that way.

 

Having heard khorns away from corners (first ones I ever heard, actually), they were still amazing.

[Flevoman]

21 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Refer to the pic I posted on page 2... khorns are flat against a long wall. They must have liked them that way.

 

Having heard khorns away from corners (first ones I ever heard, actually), they were still amazing.

 

Did you already have enough reference at that time to be able to assess whether the Klipschorn, as it was set up then, provided an accurate sound image? 
I can imagine that if you hear the Khorn playing with such a setup for the first time, you could be quite impressed by the dynamic sound, but years later, with the necessary knowledge and experience under your belt, you might judge it very differently.