Yer Doing yer Home Theater Wrong

[Ceptorman]

As an experiment to see how good my center speaker was, I used it in the front tower position for 2 channel listening. It sounded excellent, even better than I thought it would. I agree that the center is by far the most important speaker in a surround sound setting, then the sub. Another experiment. I only played the center and sub in HT mode, it sounded really good.

[Zen Traveler]

58 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

As an experiment to see how good my center speaker was, I used it in the front tower position for 2 channel listening. It sounded excellent, even better than I thought it would. I agree that the center is by far the most important speaker in a surround sound setting, then the sub. Another experiment. I only played the center and sub in HT mode, it sounded really good.

I used to know, but forgot what you're  using for a Center channel? Fwiw, I agree about the Sub being important, but I'd still would like to know what @rebuyis using for Center and Mains? And if he disconnected the Mains and checked out material with ONLY the Center up front? 🤔

[Ceptorman]

2 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I used to know, but forgot what you're  using for a Center channel? Fwiw, I agree about the Sub being important, but I'd still would like to know what @rebuyis using for Center and Mains? And if he disconnected the Mains and checked out material with ONLY the Center up front? 🤔

My center is a Palladium P27c. 

A lot will depend on what you're watching. If it's a movie with lots of explosions and high activity, your mains will receive more content, if there's more dialogue, the center will be used more. I do agree a matching system sounds better than mismatched. 

[rebuy]

6 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I used to know, but forgot what you're  using for a Center channel? Fwiw, I agree about the Sub being important, but I'd still would like to know what @rebuyis using for Center and Mains? And if he disconnected the Mains and checked out material with ONLY the Center up front? 🤔

I'm using the Tekton Pendragons, running in Mono, for the center Channel Powered by a Crown Drive Core.

All I have to is not fire up the Crown to listen to the other speakers output.

Mostly what they play is Ambient Sound.

I'm using the Klipsch RP160's for the Mains running through a Marantz.

This system rocks.

[babadono]

20 minutes ago, rebuy said:

This system rocks.

of course it does..there is an angel there

[Zen Traveler]

3 hours ago, rebuy said:

I'm using the Tekton Pendragons, running in Mono

Oops. Nevermind. I missed you were using 2 towers as Centers and if you are happy with that setup then you don't need my further opinion.

[rebuy]

1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

Sorry for being so dense but where is it in that picture? Are they the towers with your Mains on top of them 

Yes Tekton's for my center.

[Zen Traveler]

8 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

My center is a Palladium P27c. 

A lot will depend on what you're watching. If it's a movie with lots of explosions and high activity, your mains will receive more content, if there's more dialogue, the center will be used more. I do agree a matching system sounds better than mismatched. 

No doubt that Palladium sounds good. 😊 Fwiw, I listen to alot of multichannel music and action movies on occasion so our whole system gets a workout. 

[rebuy]

13 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Oops. Nevermind. I missed you were using 2 towers as Centers and if you are happy with that setup then you don't need my further opinion.

Actually, it sounds so much better than anything I have used as a center.

Sound is effortless and centered. 

[billybob]

Cool...do you ever do stereo?

[robert_kc]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:45 PM, rebuy said:

So You went and bought Big mains and a center channel with surrounds for

yer home theater. You think it sounds great.

You've made a big mistake.

Those Big mains are a waste of money unless you move them

to the center channel.

That's the most important channel.

Don't believe that?

Unplug yer center and play a Movie or TV show and

listen to what yer $1000 speakers are playing.

 

Comments?

 

My answer:  It depends on what you listen to.

I mostly play multi-channel Blu-ray and SACD discs for classical music.   And, I sometimes play Blu-ray discs for Hollywood movies.  

 

IMO/IME, the best audio quality for classical recordings involves modern performances/recordings (i.e., performances recorded in the last 15 years or so) that were captured and mastered in multi-channel hi-res digital (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered on a disc featuring DTS-HD MA 5.1 (e.g., Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray), or an SACD disc that features multi-channel DSD.   

 

Here’s an outstanding example of the benefit of multi-channel Blu-ray discs for classical music:

 

 

I have 5 hi-fi systems, 4 of which are multi-channel.    I’ll point out that I do not have wimpy center channel speakers.   In one of my systems, the center is a Klipsch RF-7II.  In two of my systems, the center is a Klipsch RC-64III.   

 

It’s easy for me to judge the content of the center channel vs. mains, because I can independently control the mains vs. center.  (They’re driven by different amps.)

 

IME/IMO, for the classical music that I love, the mains deliver most of the music.

 

IME/IMO, the subwoofers are very important for large scale orchestral music, and some Hollywood movies.

 

IME/IMO, for Hollywood movies, while the center delivers most of the dialog, the mains are still very important.

 

Bottom line, IME/IMO the main L&R speakers are important, and I respectfully disagree with your assertion that “Those Big mains are a waste of money”, and that “The center rules all the other speakers.”  

 

IME/IMO, the surround speakers are usually least important.  For classical music, the surround speakers usually play hall sounds such as applause.  For Hollywood movies, IMO surround speakers are mostly gimmickry – however the “Echo Game” in “House of Flying Daggers” is pretty cool via Blu-ray’s surround-sound.

 

FWIW, following is an abbreviated description of my multi-channel systems that provide the basis for my opinions:

 

TV room:  Main front left & right speakers are Klipsch Palladium P-37F.   Center:  Klipsch RC-64III.   Single rear:  Klipsch RP-502S.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source is an Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings.  I generally use vintage tube amps for music:   Scott 399, Fisher X-1000, Scott 299C, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC240 or McIntosh MC225.  I use solid-state amps for movies (and summertime):   NAD C375BEE, and an NAD D 3045.    A patch panel (banana plugs) allows me to connect the speakers to whichever amp I want, and Niles AXP-1 RCA selector switches connect the Oppo to the amp.   

 

Basement:  Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II.  A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7.   Subwoofers:  SVS SB16-Ultra and Klipsch R-115SW (connected via Y-adaptor).   Source:  Oppo UDP-205 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings.  Amps: Scott 272, Inspire “Fire Bottle” SE Stereo Tube Amplifier HO, Scott 222C, Fisher KX-200, Scott 296, Pilot SA-260, Scott LK150, Altec 353A, Kenwood KR-9050.   

 

Living room:  Stereo speakers are Snell Type CV.   Center:  Klipsch RC-64III.   Single rear:  RP-502S.   Subwoofer:  Klipsch P-312W.  The source components are Oppo BDP-105 for playing Blu-ray and SACDs (and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings), and Dual 1249 with Stanton 681EE equipped with a new Shibata stylus.  Amps include a pair of McIntosh MC30s, Scott 296, McIntosh MX110Z / McIntosh MC275, a pair of Pilot HF-56 mono receivers, an NAD C 162 pre-amp and Acurus A250 power-amp for movies, and a McIntosh 2155 that can drive the center channel and single rear speaker or JBL L830s in the kitchen / dining room.   

 

Bedroom:  Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch WF-35.  SVS SB-2000 Pro subwoofer.   Source is an Oppo BDP-95 for playing Pure Audio Blu-ray and SACDs, and a USB hard drive containing high-res FLAC recordings.  (No TV.)   Fisher 500C drives the left & right speakers.  Fisher TA 500 (AM/FM mono receiver) drives the center speaker.  

[Tom05]

On 7/26/2023 at 4:04 PM, Zen Traveler said:

Can't a dominant center also show the weakness of your other speakers? 

 

Sure a superior center can expose weakness in the other channels , but because the center is responsible for about 70 percent of the audio presentation with most sources including all dialogue ,  center  speaker quality becomes paramount . Just  as Frank Sinatra’s magnificent voice towers above  his lowly background singers , the center  channel towers above all other channels . Having said this I like a matching front stage without any compromise  . Rebuy points out the importance of a great center and I agree 🤓

[Zen Traveler]

24 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

Sure a superior center can expose weakness in the other channels , but because the center is responsible for about 75 percent of the audio presentation including all dialogue ,  center  speaker quality becomes paramount .

We may be saying the same thing if we are saying you want a center channel to keep up with your mains. Otoh, a mismatched front sound stage would really be apparent in panning and multichannel music however. I have also been surprised how many concert videos don't use the center as much as you'd think.

24 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

 

Just  as Frank Sinatra’s magnificent voice towers above  his lowly background singers , the center  channel towers above all other channels .

Well...I suggest if your "center channel towers above all other channels," then you have a mismatched system. They should blend so well that when the lights are off you are enveloped in the material and not like focusing on speakers.

24 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

 

Having said this I like a matching front stage without any compromise at  center .

Getting back to square one--most people can't place a large center where they want and here lies the compromise.

24 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

Rebuy points out the importance of a great center and I agree 🤓

Sure. The reason I was going to disengage from his thread was because he's happy. If he's happy, I'm happy! 😁

 

Otoh, looking at his setup, if someone wanted to raise their monitor that high, run 2 towers as center, and put small bookshelf speakers as mains on top of them, I'd consider a 2nd opinion on where to spend their money.

[Tom05]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:23 PM, Zen Traveler said:

We may be saying the same thing if we are saying you want a center channel to keep up with your mains. Otoh, a mismatched front sound stage would really be apparent in panning and multichannel music however. I have also been surprised how many concert videos don't use the center as much as you'd think.

Well...I suggest if your "center channel towers above all other channels," then you have a mismatched system. They should blend so well that when the lights are off you are enveloped in the material and not like focusing on speakers.

Getting back to square one--most people can't place a large center where they want and here lies the compromise.

Sure. The reason I was going to disengage from his thread was because he's happy. If he's happy, I'm happy! 😁

 

Otoh, looking at his setup, if someone wanted to raise their monitor that high, run 2 towers as center, and put small bookshelf speakers as mains on top of them, I'd consider a 2nd opinion on where to spend their money.

” Most  people can’t place a large center where they want and here lies the compromise”. Yes , that’s right , it’s compromise , that’s the point , we should resist compromise ,particularly  at  center  🤷‍♂️.you won’t catch me with a Heresy or Academy between my Klipschorns , only Lascala will do for me . I responded to this thread because the OP recognized the importance of a high quality speaker at center , as I do , and I thought that his approach was unique , although  in reality a variation of a standard fantom center . A matching front stage is preferred ( by me)but If I only had one great sounding speaker , it goes to center, where would you place your best speaker ?

[Zen Traveler]

13 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

.you won’t catch me with a Heresy or Academy between my Klipschorns , only Lascala will do for me .

I totally agree!

13 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

I responded to this thread because the OP recognized the importance of a high quality speaker at center , as I do , and I thought that his approach was unique .

We all agree on the importance of a good Center, but where we part company is on the approach.

13 minutes ago, Tom05 said:

 

Obviously a matching front stage is preferred ( by me)but If I only had one great sounding speaker , it goes to center, where would you place your best speaker ?

If I had to mix-n-match speakers instead of trying to purchase a cohesive front sound stage and I had to make that choice I probably would agree. Dunno that I would use 2 speakers playing the exact same material because of lobing issues. I also think putting less capable Mains on top of a dual center setup would would also mess with panning across the front.

 

Again, if he's happy, GREAT! Do I agree about getting the best center possible? YES! Do I think I'm doing it "wrong"(as the title suggests)? NO. If I could put an RF-7 at center, would I run less capable bookshelf speakers as mains? NO. 

[rebuy]

Hahahaha.

Hearing is everything.

Thanks for Yer replies.

[Ceptorman]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:45 PM, Zen Traveler said:

No doubt that Palladium sounds good. 😊 Fwiw, I listen to alot of multichannel music and action movies on occasion so our whole system gets a workout. 

I thought about doing the multi channel listening route. I have an Oppo CD player that has 7 channel audio out, just haven't pulled that trigger yet.I actually listen to 2 channel way more than HT.

[Zen Traveler]

1 hour ago, Ceptorman said:

I thought about doing the multi channel listening route. I have an Oppo CD player that has 7 channel audio out, just haven't pulled that trigger yet.I actually listen to 2 channel way more than HT.

We'll, you may end up being a little late because that time and went without it catching on. Now it appears the best disks are pretty expensive on the used market and they're not making them anymore. What a drag! I started watching a ton of movies and then really liking Concert videos...

 

Then in the early 2000s I heard my first remake of Aerosmith's "Toys in the attic" on SACD and around 60 disks later that format along with DVD-A is my primary material on a regular basis. I haven't really listened to 2-channel since.

[Paducah Home Theater]

On 7/22/2023 at 2:59 PM, wuzzzer said:

I’ve always says that a phantom center is infinitely better than shoehorning some tiny little center that is completely mismatched to everything else.

 

Consider the following situations:

1. all three fronts are playing the same material

2. only the center channel is playing

3. only the mains are playing

4. the center is playing one thing but the mains are playing something else

All of these will sound exactly the same with a phantom center, plus if you're sitting off-axis, nothing is anchored to the screen at all, voices will always come out of whatever speaker is closest to you.  It's not a good thing.  Center channels are important.  
 

[Paducah Home Theater]

On 7/27/2023 at 4:47 PM, rebuy said:

I'm using the Tekton Pendragons, running in Mono, for the center Channel Powered by a Crown Drive Core.

All I have to is not fire up the Crown to listen to the other speakers output.

Mostly what they play is Ambient Sound.

I'm using the Klipsch RP160's for the Mains running through a Marantz.

This system rocks.

Goodness.  

Look, throw all the other stuff away, get a third identical Tekton, get them all on the same plane, and just never use your fireplace again.  Only then will this be a useful conversation.  

Like somebody here mentioned... yer doin it wrong.