explain Bi-wire??

[white_shadow]

This might help clarify some thing regarding bi-wiring. I took an electromagnetic field and waves course a while back. It was a while ago and we didn't get to in depth with signal transmission, so I may have some things mixed up.

High frequency signals tend to migrate towards the skin of a conductor. Almost to the extent that the signal is carried on the surface entirely with the exception of a slight skin depth. This would be for a single strand of a conductor.

Low frequencies do the opposite, they become centralized within the core of the conductor.

In a single strand conductor, the high frequencies would be "forced" to the surface while the low frequency occpies the core.

Now the question is, what happens when we have 1000 strands of a conductor grouped in 10, paired with another group of 10, and wound in a spiral double-helix. Would the high frequencies treat the multiple strand spiraled wire as a single conductor, or would all the skin effects be additive.

You might conclude from this that different conductors (types) should be used for the high and low frequencies, for instance single strand copper for the low and multiple strand spiraled for the highs. I guess this is where wire manufacturers begin to argue.

You also should conclude that some sort of interaction has to occur between the highs and lows in the same conductor. How long they interact and how much area they occupy is what I wonder about in bi-wiring. Bi-wires usually only has the connector (amp-side) for this process to occur. You'd think a thick solid conductor wrapped in a multistranded spiraled thin conductor that become separted just before the speaker would be an optimal speaker wire for a 2-way system.

Another thing to ponder is, what is considered high and low when this signal interaction occurs. How does this "cutoff" frequency match my crossovers and drivers.

By the way I tried some "wire" experiments before. I used residential 12ga solid conductors. There was a difference.

[radiob]

My $900.00 Bi-wire cable, yes it does have directional arrows. Notice high and low marked on the wire. This particular cable sounds incredible. It has articulation and insturment seperation like no other cable I have heard. I do not use this with Klipsch Speakers.

[Lankhoss]

Anyone have any opinions on the idea that once you separate the terminals, each set sees the opposite side of the crossover as infinite resistance? I.E. In a 3 way speaker with the low/mid crossover at 700Hz, the "low" input sees everything above 700Hz as infinite resistance, and the "high" input sees everything below 700Hz as infinite resistance.

This would explain the advantage to bi-wiring your speaker....but I can't figure out how the speaker would act that way.

Any comments?

[white_shadow]

radiob,

"My $900.00 Bi-wire cable, yes it does have directional arrows. Notice high and low marked on the wire. This particular cable sounds incredible. It has articulation and insturment seperation like no other cable I have heard. I do not use this with Klipsch Speakers."

I didn't see any directional arrows. Or any +/- markings. I did see high/low output. But does that refer to what the wire is putting out or what it should be connected to? Anyways, sounds like a problem for the people at Bose to figure out.

By the way anyone ever heard of a "shotgun" wire. I heard it is a term used for reverse bi-wire. I am most likely misinformed.

[radiob]

My MIT picture is of a shotgun bi wire,it has directional arrows, with one pair of bannanas at the amp and 2 pairs high and low at the speakers.

[Lankhoss]

I THINK I'VE GOT IT!!

Bear with me here........

I've got a threeway speaker. The crossover for the woofers is at 700Hz. There's a second crossover, but it doesn't play into the theory here. So when my amplifier is sending signals to the speaker......the AMPLIFIER sends ALL of the frequencies along the wire, then the crossover splits them AT THE SPEAKER. When I bi-wire my speakers......there are now two sets of terminals (well, there's always two....but they're shorted together when you don't bi-wire). So if I ONLY hooked up the low set of terminals at the speakers......sound will ONLY come through the woofers, not the mid or tweeter. Same goes if I hooked up the high input, only.........ZERO sound comes through the woofers.

What appears to be happening, is now the crossover is working at the AMPLIFIER end, as opposed to the SPEAKER end. Meaning.......ONLY 700Hz and below are actually TRAVELLING on the wire going to the low end (because the frequencies above that are somehow cut out...as if they are seeing infinate resistance). ONLY 700Hz and above are travelling to the high input at the speaker.....there are no low frequencies even TRAVELLING on that set of wires.

This has got to be the case, because how else could I only listen to the woofers, or only listen to the mid/tweeters without going into the speaker and disconnecting something?

This would make perfect sense as to the advantages of bi-wiring. You don't have the low frequencies and high frequencies travelling on the same wires (even though the amp is spitting them out, they're being rejected in the wire). If you look at the sketch for bi-amping.....you are using an external crossover, then two separate amps, to send only lows on one set of wires, and only highs on the other set of wires. I think bi-wiring does a quicky job of this. I don't know how else I could only choose which set of speakers I wanted to listen to on my tower.

Now, the difficult part is........explaining, theoretically, how my speakers can do that!!! You have two sets of terminals that are now in parallel....how is that not changing the impedance of the overall load????

Discuss!

[meuge]

i don't think you're right. If you biwire without using an external crossover, there is nothing to separate the target frequencies until they hit the passive crossover inside the speaker. Thus it doesn't matter how many terminals you add, since the frequencies are electrically together until they hit the speaker crossover.

If you had your preamp->external crossover->3 amps->speaker drivers then it would be the only situation where the signals are separate before the internal crossover of the speakers. And this would be biamping not biwiring.

But here is what i want to know - i took out the brass jumper from my RF-3IIs and just used some of the nice 12-gauge copper wire as a bridge. Is it an improvement (no matter how little, why not, since those few inches of wire don't really cost anything) or a detriment?

[Lankhoss]

Meuge,

I agree with you, but here's what I don't understand. The way the speaker works is that signal goes through the crossover, passing ONLY signals below 700Hz to my woofers. Now, if I just hook up the low input terminals, sound comes through the woofers.....but not the mids. That means that all of the signals below 700Hz are being passed to the woofers, but where are the signals going that are ABOVE 700Hz? I think they somehow "see" an infinite resistance, an open, and don't pass to the upper channels. Whenever electricity "sees" an open, it simply does not travel along that path. So wouldn't that be the same for audio signals? Wouldn't that mean that since everything above 700Hz sees an open, it simply doesn't travel along the wire?

The only other way that I could be hearing the woofer, and not the mid/tweeter would be if removing those plates someone removed the crossover all together, and all frequencies were sent to all speakers. And I just don't see that being the case

[IndyKlipschFan]

I may be wrong here... someone correct me if I am.. In these new bi wire ready speakers with the four jacks in the back... Do they send the signal on the inside to the x over with two separate leads. Or do they combine this 4 posts to one lead to the x over. If it is one lead on the inside to the x over...I think the dual speaker cable from an amp is pointless.

In a PA use.. you have different amps for differnet drivers. A much more powerful one for the sub cabinets, nice mid power ones for the mids and highs. An electronic x over sends the signals to these units as determined by the manufactuers too.

For home use they may be used like a loudness control in the old days.. at lower levels. You boosted the lows a little more to make them sound more fuller...

Some one take theirs off, and tell us what it looks like from the inside.. PLS!!!

[Klipschfoot]

I find this thread fascinating.

For 3-way speakers, should I TRI-wire?

If bi-wiring does not make my system sound better, should I just get a better amp? Better speakers?

Do any famous people admit to being bi-wirers?

Will incorrect bi-wiring void my warranty?

I asked a friend if he bi-wires. He said he buys wires when he needs them. I got an odd look. It was an awkward moment.

(1834 views as of 8-14-04 2:37 AM.)

[IndyKlipschFan]

I find this thread fascinating.

For 3-way speakers, should I TRI-wire?

Wow that gets onto relationship problems and jealousy for sure!!

If bi-wiring does not make my system sound better, should I just get a better amp? Better speakers? Like a good partner.. If you really like what you have no real reason to stray. Also like a good woman..(amp and speaker comparison here) get a great unit to start with and it will purr... wonderfully with some good attention for the rest of your life.

Do any famous people admit to being bi-wirers?

Only in Hollywood... But they dance around it publicly.

Will incorrect bi-wiring void my warranty?

If your not Bi don't go their. The harm to your own self worth may get damaged if you try and force something that doesn;t feel or sound right to you.

I asked a friend if he bi-wires. He said he buys wires when he needs them. I got an odd look. It was an awkward moment. You should really not ask these questions in the mens room. look straight ahead.. yeppers... "Sloan Valve" again... hahahahahah

(1834 views as of 8-14-04 2:37 AM.)

[Lankhoss]

The mystery continues.

All I know is that once I hooked up bi-wires, my system sounded way better.

But I can't figure out how I can send sound to just the woofers, or just the mids/tweeters while the crossover is still working.

[richinlr]

Regarding a-b tests on bi-wiring of low efficiency speakers, I haven't done any scientific testing but I HAVE bi-wired my ET's in the past and now they are just straight wired with Canare 4x14.

When they were bi-wired I was using some 'snake oil' expensive wire for the highs and plain ole Monster PowerLine (the 4 conductor stuff that looked like a water hose) in equal ten foot lengths.

My new HT setup (with the 65 inch big screen and 136' wide entertainment system) required more cable. Hence the 20' lengths of Canare 4x14.

Audibly, there less bass than before. That being said. I have no clue as to whether the bi-wiring was better, the Monster Powerline was the real deal on bass, the different construction on the new cable or the change in cable length caused the difference.

All I can say is the difference (whatever it was due to) was REAL. When watching the big screen, I did have to increase the bass level significantly (from flat to about 2/3 the way to full) on the television to achieve the same bass impact.

[cmdridq]

Hi Colterphoto1,

Re: "BTW, the RC7 'tapered array' is one of the best ideas I have heard in years. It avoids the timing difference between two similar drivers in the critical vocal range if the listener is off-axis of the speaker." -->Just a FYI, have you ever heard any Tannoy speakers? They're a speaker company in Scotland, and they employ this concept in many of their high end models. They make an excellent product, but I think they are hard to find in some market areas. They're one of my favorites, after Klipsch, of course!

Anyway, I just finished reading this thread. I love these bi-wire threads. You guys are great! Sometimes I had to read almost the entire post to figure out if it was a joke or not. I think after bi-wiring, my next favorite serious topic is creation science. BTW, for anyone who is looking for some insight into a better understanding of bi-wiring, I highly recommend watching the movie "The Road to Wellville."

Here is a copy of a post I just made in a bi-wiring thread in the Technical Questions Forum. I think some of those guys have not yet realized the seriousness of this topic.

-----snip

I've experimented with several different bi-amping and bi-wiring configurations utilizing different kinds of speakers, amplifiers, and source material. I also conducted a listening test while I was working at a high end audio shop, of about 100 of our 'audiophile' customers. The goal was to see how many could actually discern any differences between bi-amped, bi-wired, and normal setups, using a blind hearing test. Make a long story short:

Bi-amping -- In circumstances involving extreme demands on a receiver/amp including factors such as high volume, inefficient speaker design, underpowered or poorly designed amps, high dynamic range of source material, or extremely demanding bass reproduction, bi-amping clearly can save your bacon. Under these conditions, over 80% of our customers could repeatedly and immediately hear a definite improvement in a bi-amped system when compared to a conventional or a bi-wired hookup. It should be noted that under low volume levels and undemanding source material, the bi-amp advantage decreased sharply.

Bi-wiring -- In blind test comparisons, no one could consistently tell the difference between a conventional setup and a bi-wire setup. Interestingly, when listeners knew which setup they were hearing, over 3/4 of them claimed a definite preference for the bi-wire config vs. the regular setup, but they again could not hear any difference in a subsequent blind comparison.

I have intentionally not mentioned any brand or store names because of problems I have had in the past when I told this experience to others. I have been accused of promoting equipment, knocking equipment, being an incompetent nutjob, and all manner of other ridiculous assertions. I did it because I was curious about all the contradictory claims being made about these techniques, many of which seemed lacking a legitimate scientific basis. IMO, bi-wiring has no advantages over a conventional two wire connection, and listening tests confirm this conclusion. But some people are convinced otherwise, just as some people are positive that their system sounds much better using 10 GA speaker cable instead of 12 GA. These are just my opinions, YMMV. I do know that high-end cables and connectors are often the most profitable part of a system sale.

-----snip

[dantfmly]

----------------

On 6/10/2004 12:43:32 AM Frank Speaker wrote:

gibby214:

2-Channel Audio » How much would biamping change soun on a Klipsch? By rkwu

That post is well worth reading.

As you can see in the diagram you need the active x-over for true bi-amping.

Cheers!

----------------

would bi amping not work this way also. If you did in the above manner you discribe. a person would actually have to remove the crossover from the speaker.

[dbflash]

Check this out and it may answer some questions on BI-AMPING.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Danny

[dr-dezibel]

P.W.Klipsch said bi-wiring is bulls#@t. He was a man who knew what he said.

So why do Klipsch speakers have bi-wiring posts?

Get yourself some good speakers and good - not expensive audiophile - cables, leave the bi-wiring bs, buy some good cd's and be happy!

Bi-wiring is strongly recommended (by cable manufacturers?) for tweakin' freakin' so called audiophiles who hear the grass grow (or think they can?).

Just my opinion.

[colterphoto1]

I am amazed this thread is still alive and kicking. Just shows how a manufacturer can open a real Pandora's Box with the addition of new 'features'.

[Deang]

You guys are killing me.

[Lankhoss]

Have all of these people who claim bi-wire is BS actually tried bi-wiring their speakers? I'm amazed to see these posts.

I heard an INCREDIBLE difference in sound quality when I hooked up my bi-wire cables. And not one where I had to really listen, and try to convince myself it was there. As SOON as the song I was "testing" started up with guitar only, I could tell the difference. It really made my system sound tons better.

The thing is, my regular speaker wires were actually one grade higher than the bi-wire cables I'm using (I went from MCX-2S stereo wires to MCX-1S bi-wire cables). Maybe I've just got a good receiver/speaker combination or something, but it was a HUGE difference in sound to me. Of course, I also noticed a BIG difference when I put the spikes on my speakers, as well.

As I said in an earlier post, my boss bi-wired his center channel and said it was a very big gain, as well.