Belles & Hafler Confession

[Daddy Dee]

Peter,

I was listening to LaScala's on Hafler and it sounded harsh for me. For my speakers to sound right to me, it took a tube amp and a tube cd player. if you're happy with the sound just be happy. Klipsch speakers can become a money pit one feels compelled to change everything from the source to the speakers.

My hafler was a dh220, and several different hafler preamps. Your stuff may be cleaner than mine was.

REgards,

Dee

[sunnysal]

peter, the best answer always is believe your ears! if the system sounds good to you, than great.

however if we are to abandon "orthodoxy" and "beliefs" as others say they would have us do, then there is no harm in auditioning a variety of tube and SS amps.

there is no right and wrong. the SS zealots are just as bad as the Tube zealots, the high power versus low power zealots too.

tubes worked better for me in my system when compared to very nice SS gear, so be it. I am a tubey. DHT worked better than SET for me, in my room, with my system and with my musical preferecnes.

the opposite was the case for tom and john and others, so be it. but to close ones mind rather than open it is ALWAYS a mistake. try out different things in your system, some will be steps backward, but some will be steps forward and that is what this hobby is about. getting closer and closer to the music!

best of luck, tony

[Deang]

Tony is right...what sounds good to you IS good.

I threw an old Adcom 555 II on my RF-7's and it sounded just fine to me. Could I live with it? If I had to, yes. It definitely didn't sound "bad", and it didn't make me want to jump up and turn the music down, or slit my wrists. Very clean, though a little tizzy on top and somewhat cutting -- but nothing to freak out over. Unbelievable bass transients. I might try to figure out a way to screw a couple of light bulbs into the top to tame the highs.

[jt1stcav]

Like so many others have stated, trust your ears.

When I first "inherited" my Cornwalls, I drove them with a Carver M-400t 201WPC "cube" SS amp, then a Carver TFM-35x 250WPC amp, and then switched to a massive McIntosh MC7200 200WPC amp, which made a world of difference compared to my Carvers (before the Cornwalls, I had a pair of Magnepan MGLR1 planars that sounded fantastic with both Carvers, but sounded thinner with the more efficient Klipsch).

I'm not ashamed to admit using high-powered, high-current SS amplifiers with my Cornwalls. Sure, I know that both PP and SET vacuum tube amps are the "chosen" means of aural power to drive our beloved Klipsch loudspeakers, and someday I'd love to own a tube amp. But for the time being, the current amplifier of choice is a classic McIntosh MC250 50WPC amp that has a very neutral sound that compliments the Cornwalls in every sense of the word. It's what works best for my ears, and that's all that matters most!

Listen.

[Tony Boone]

I acquired my La Scalas about 3-4 months ago now. Initially I was using the HK preamp mentioned in my sig along with the Hafler dh220 also in the sig. Then almost as soon as I bought the La Scalas the same seller offered me his McIntosh mc2125 for only $200. I told him I had to go do some research and would get back to him. Almost blew it because I went back the same day.

Anyway I bought the Mac amp and connected it to the La Scalas and almost immediately noticed a significant difference in the 'warmth' of the sound as well as depth of sound stage, clarity of instruments and the like.

I may buy tubes one day and wanted them when I purchased the La Scalas but am thinking now that I'll stay with the Mac ss amp for a while. No hurry.

The Hafler was too bright on the La Scalas but the Mac amp brought them to life. Very transparent. It's like I only hear the band and they music they play and not the equipment. If you can find an old Mac ss amp I think you'll find the difference in that and your Hafler very pleasing to your ears.

Tony B.

[Tony Boone]

----------------

On 7/5/2003 1:53:20 PM jt1stcav wrote:

then switched to a massive McIntosh MC7200 200WPC amp, which made a world of difference

But for the time being, the current amplifier of choice is a classic McIntosh MC250 50WPC amp that has a very neutral sound that compliments the Cornwalls in every sense of the word.

----------------

I could have written this same post. Also have a set of Magnepan mg2a speakers that I was using prior to the La Scalas. Anyone looking for Magnepans?

Yes the Mac amps do give the Klipsch we own a neutral and most pleasing sound quality. That's two votes for vintage McIntosh solid state amplifiers.

Tony B.

[Audible Nectar]

"Yes the Mac amps do give the Klipsch we own a neutral and most pleasing sound quality. That's two votes for vintage McIntosh solid state amplifiers."

Make it three. As the owner of 2 Mac 250s, I hereby deem this amplifier

******** CERTIFIED ********

to drive your Klipsch

Mac + Klipsch = Yummy

[johnymac]

I too use Hafler amps with KLF 30's. Used to run a DH500, upgraded to an XL-600. In fact, I am having $2000.00 worth of mods done to the 600 now. I must admit I run a tube cd player and a tube preamp, with some real nice tubes. They sound is truely awesum!!

[NOSValves]

I don't know about cats but I can crank my system up to 110+ dB and my Dogs never run out of the room !! Wonder if the Cat's hear better then peterbwreal

[stan krajewski]

I power my Herseys with a Hafler DH500 and an ADCOM 555 preamp. I have tried the Dynaco ST70, Fisher x100b, Fisher x200b, Adcom 545, NAD 3020. I know, not the creme-de-la-creme but to me the Hafler blows them all away, easily. I am really happy with it. For now, the Hafler is king. I'll keep looking and listening but I really enjoy the deep bass and smooth highs and exquisite midrange. The only negative is the slight fan whirr.

Another factor is that I also have AR3As and Advents and from time to time swap them in. THe Hafler DH500 handles them very easily.

I belonged to and audio club for years and heard countless setups of tube amps & ss amps and I can tell you I have heard good and bad setups in both camps. Actually, the finest sounding setups (to me) were ss. Expensive, but the best. It was a bitter pill to swallow.

These opinions are based solely on MY limited experience and not intended to be a flame.

[Daddy Dee]

Well, best advice I've heard on this forum is: "if it sounds good to your ears, it's good."

That's what this is all about anyway, enjoying the music.

[krustyoldsarge]

While at heart I'm a tubehead, I'd like to toss in my vote for vintage Marantz SS. Was running my KG4's with a 2220b 2x20wpc which provide great detail, but the receiver was obviously working hard at high listening levels.

Swapped it out a few months back for a Marantz 2385 2x185wpc and what a difference! The 2385 takes over the situation like a 900 lb. gorilla! Handles everything without breathing hard and never sounds harsh.

A previous poster mentioned Dynaco ST-70's. The stock ST-70's bass gets a little flabby at times. I would not purchase a Dyna without anticipating going through the unit completely. By the time you've done that, you'll realize some upgrades are in order. There are a myriad of mod's for and opinions about the Dyna ST-70 out there, so prepare to be confused. It's helpful to remember that it was designed to a price point (unlike the Fisher 400 I own) and thus possesses some compromises.

Haven't touched a thing with the 2385, though, totally plug and play!

[maxg]

First off that is not a confession - its a statement about what you have and like - and that is fine.

Personally I am a tubie at heart, but that doesnt mean I dont recognise there are some great setups out there running with SS amps. In fact, strange as it may seem, the best KHorn setup I ever heard was powered with an SS amp - The Accuphzase E406 (170 wpc I think).

I should add a couple of caveats to that I suppose:

1. It was a long time ago and the first time I ever really got to hear KHorns. I have heard many systems since - maybe if I were to go back to hear them again it wouldnt impress as much. On the other hand - no system ever left such a lasting impression on me.

2. It was the only time I have ever heard an Accuphase Amp I liked. I owned a lesser model and moved from that to tubes. The difference to me was night and day.

3. The owner of the original system has long since sold his horns. He moved to Quad 989's, again powered by his trusty Accuphase. He has since sold the whole lot and it sans system currently. He spent a week at my house (house-sitting) over christmas and listening to my system. Now he plans his next purchase to be tube based.

bottom line - if its right for you today that is about as far as you can go. tomorrow you may well change your mind - but heh - that can happen to anyone...

[Randy Bey]

Let's play the devil's advocate here for a moment. A long time ago in a galaxy far far away a hifi salesman told me to "buy up" when selecting equipment, the theory that your hearing will grow to appreciate the difference.

This was of course a cheap ploy to sell me more expensive equipment.

But, there is a grain of truth in it. If you can find (and this is the weak point in the argument) a reputable source for the concept of "up", then you are on your way.

I for one DON'T trust my ears, at least not at first. I spend weeks, sometimes, agonizing over whether my latest change has made the music more "correct" or less. I am painfully aware of psychological conditioning, and growing accustomed to the sound which my hifi now produces.

The reference material that I use to judge comes from outside the home. Literally. Open the windows (not in the winter!) and listen to birds, to cars driving down the street -- not the boom boom cars, just the regular variety -- anything and everything. I am fortunate to go to church in the huge St. Paul Cathedral, which is both a horror and a godsend in acoustics.

Don't make snap judgements; don't trust your ears. At least, not at first. Eventually you need to come to a decision, and that will involve a sort of "election" of dissenting opinions that your ears have produced.

Critical listening is neither quick nor easy. It should be hard and unpleasant, in that it forces you to reconsider your values and pre-conceived notions about not just sound, but your internal driving factors (am I doing this to get in good with the tube community?) and prejudices.

[maxg]

I have to laugh Randy - our approaches are so different:

"This was of course a cheap ploy to sell me more expensive equipment.

But, there is a grain of truth in it. If you can find (and this is the weak point in the argument) a reputable source for the concept of "up", then you are on your way."

Well I have to beg to differ on this (which is what a forum is all about). I usually try to listen from the bottom up (at least to my price level). You would be amazed how often, despite the salesman's protestations I prefer a less expensive model than the supposed "top of the line". Oftentimes I feel that TOTL products have that manufacturers signature sound to the greatest degree - that's fine if you like their sound - but not doing so aint wrong and can save serious $$$.

"I for one DON'T trust my ears, at least not at first. I spend weeks, sometimes, agonizing over whether my latest change has made the music more "correct" or less. I am painfully aware of psychological conditioning, and growing accustomed to the sound which my hifi now produces."

A long time ago (actually in this galaxy) I decided that the only thing I would trust is my ears. Reasoning is simple - I cant upgrade them - they are the listening recepticles I have - they are my guide. Yes there is certainly plenty of psychology at work but, hell, as long as that remains constant I am in like Flynn.

"The reference material that I use to judge comes from outside the home. Literally. Open the windows (not in the winter!) and listen to birds, to cars driving down the street -- not the boom boom cars, just the regular variety -- anything and everything. I am fortunate to go to church in the huge St. Paul Cathedral, which is both a horror and a godsend in acoustics.

Don't make snap judgements; don't trust your ears. At least, not at first. Eventually you need to come to a decision, and that will involve a sort of "election" of dissenting opinions that your ears have produced."

That's nice. I tend to use CD's or LP's I am familiar with. I realised some time back that when it comes to approximating reality (which is what I think you are getting at) I have no idea what reality was for the VAST majority of the recordings I own. I just go with what sounds good to me. I choose on instincts and "gut feel" (literally for the sub I used to have). Usually I can make a decision in 5 minutes or less. Rarely do I find that said decision changes with time.

"Critical listening is neither quick nor easy. It should be hard and unpleasant, in that it forces you to reconsider your values and pre-conceived notions about not just sound, but your internal driving factors (am I doing this to get in good with the tube community?) and prejudices."

I now have a system for critical listening and consequently, find it to be a breeze most of the time for major components and especially entire systems (not cables, power cleaners and so on). In any of the pieces I use for such an exercise I know them so well they are littered with "key-points" I am looking for. I can get away with 2, 5 minute sessions usually and have a fair idea of where the item under test performs better and/or worse than my current setup.

Often I will ask my wife for her opinion - as a total non-audiophile with no interest in this hobby of ours and no ax to grind she tells it like she hears it.

Example - Final 0.3 electrostatic speakers mated to firstly my amps (sounds weak - her comment - true) and then to an SS amp the salesman brought round (sounds metalic - vaguely revolting - chuckle). Didnt buy them.

Or when I first installed a TT in our system. Less than a minute of listening and she says "I told you I hate digital - now you know why"

The funny thing is she thinks it takes me far to long to audition any piece of equipment....