Selling my Belles... I said I would give you guys first crack.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Moon,

Are you thinking of KLF30's? I had a pair for a month and took them back. I was using a Denon receiver and they would fatigue the hell out of my ears. I know that you hear that about all Klipsch speakers, but the KLF's are particularly bad in this respect.

My K-horns hooked up to the same receiver sounded so much better. a tad bit (ie very little) bit to harsh in the midrange, but nothing like the KLF's. If you are looking for some slim speakers to fit your room, go with the Chorous. A pair sold locally for $500 recently (Valentines day, I waited until the next morning and they were gone--Oh well didn't need another set of speakers anyway)

If you don't want Heritage (or quasi-heritage like Chorous) go for the RF7's. I got a used pair for a friend and they are really nice sounding, plus they are tall and skinny. You should be able to get a pair for about half of what you will get for your Belle's. The RF7 is way smoother and no fatigue like the KLF's.

Chris

[tigerwoodKhorns]

OK, I am an idiot. I see from your page that you have RF7's.

By the way, as far as a video screen, a guy an eBay sells the material. You can get a pretty big piece for about $60. Then just fabricate a frame and hang it on the wall. This will save you the trouble of the goo that you are considering. Use an eBay search with "projector screen material" and you should get a hit.

Chris

[m00n]

J/M

I actually was hoping to retain that big sound. I really liked the sound of the belles they way they were with the exception of the bass.

Ugh... I guess for me, the best speaker would be something that sounded like the belles in the mids and highs but with a nice big full bass sound. KHorns are not an option. No corners for them. Or simply a good all around speaker. One that is not shy on the bass when listening to rock, but nice and smooth and full when listening to new age or classical.

Would that be the cornwall, chorus.X or forte?

Oh and Tiger, do you know if the material he sells is for a digital projector?

[jt1stcav]

m00n, ol' boy...I read all 3 pages of your thread just now (the new job has me quite busy), and I agree with you. I won't bother repeating what so many others have already said, but it all boils down to you, your family, and your dream of owning a dedicated home theatre. That's your baby, and you're content with your Reference horns, so that's that, end of discussion. Sell the Belles to someone who has the room and the desire for them, and try to recoop your money back into your HT. In the long run, you, your wife, and your sanity, will be all the better for it!

Do your really need a 2-channel stereo system in your living room? Once your HT is complete, you and the family will be in there 24/7 watching movies and probably listening to music as well...I say to forget the Cornwalls (for now) and just concentrate on the completion of your baby, and then enjoy that! Later if you feel the Heritage bug biting you, then you can concentrate on that. But for now, your HT is your top priority...just do it!

[Papertester]

Well I guess it is time to start putting my two cents worth. I feel like I've been lurking in this forum and not contributing I first heard the K-horn at my New England Hi Fi, PORTLAND MAINE, in mid 70 I would go there every day and hang out (my teen years) Bought a lot of equiptment in all these years Carver Scott Pioneer Marantz yamaha you know the drill. My best friend ( his dad was a lawyer) got a set of Cornwalls in 78 Man what a sound ..Vinyl. FF to 1984 get a great deal on a 1984 Cornwall with a HK integrated amp 75wpc $500 Cash & carry them home to my apartment use them for two years plenty of parties get evicted once but then go in to debt sell everything cheeeep. in 1986 buy my old Cornwalls back but Fall in love have kids buy a small house and STUPID ME SELL MY CORNWELLS IN 1991 TO THE FIRST CALLER (OF 68 DIFFERENT POTENTIAL BUYERS IN 3 DAYS SOLD AGGGGGGGGHHH

MISTAKE #1 Next in 1994 I Bought a Pair of Quartets demos at the dealers played them for six months and then boughttraded up to a pair of Fortes II sounding like the Klipsch I know (you can say what you want about the Chorus I&II the truth is the Fortes' Bass is Leaner Crisper and Deeper, but that could be another post see I can fit in here real well. Ok but now on to MISTAKE # 2 I actually Traded UP??? to the Epic Series 4 Special ordered in Oak oil or medium oak whatever the Veneer was then. I packed up the Fortes in their original boxes and lugged them to the audio store(Cookin' remember them)

Guys were standing around like it was a wake 3 salesman started calling their customers telling the what had just come in. Drove these home in a driving rainstorm lugged them into the house boy were these heavy set them up fired up the amp and uuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmm these sounded like **** worked and tweaked until 7 in the morning my wife cant believe this evev she thinks they sound like SSShht( not to say that she hated them from just looking at them) sometimes the wife does koow!Anyways was at the store waiting for them to open I wanted my Fortes back what was I thinking Ok well quite a few years have passedand in my insane mind I've thought plenty about trading my Fortes for anotherpair of Speakers, Klipsch only... Considered a pair of KLf 30's

Bur again my wife God Bless Here talked me into keeping my Fortes. Well in february after watching E-Bay fro over 2 years i found myself a pair of Cornwall II in oil oak ( my WAF) Everything is in oil Oak. It was close enough CT. thast i could drive there to pick up. I'm happy with my purchase the speakers were in excellent condition. Thw kicker is that i havent found the proper equiptment or should i say iIknow the proper equiptment I just can't afford it yet. My Cornwalls arent where I want them to be yet but i know that all good things come to those who wait well the moral to the story is (what was this post about?) Oh yeah m00n remember experimenting is good, learning is good and yes WIVE'S are good and KLIPSCH IS GOOD . My wife's favorite quote "I never told you to sell those CORNWALLS"

[boomac]

mOOn,

JM's idea about looking into Fortes is right on. I have Forte IIs and really enjoy them in my two channel set-up. I've tried them with several different power sources and they sounded great with all of them. Their size is manageable and rock and jazz play well. Someday I will have to try the tube stuff but I think your experience has taught me to step back and think before I jump too quickly. I think many of us gained considerable knowledge as a result of the answers provided for many of your good questions. It was an interesting few months.

BTW, your HT set-up is awesome. I listened to a very similar set-up today and it blew me away. I'm not jumping to fork over the bucks necessary to " 7-up " like you but damn I was impressed. My only question, (my friends as well), why do think it necessary to replace the RC 7 center with another RF 7?

Anyway, keep asking the great questions. The more you ask the more we learn.

SM

[Jim Cornell]

Yea im still here

Corns bud, CORNS, about 200.00 more than fortes if you find the right deal

A wall standing k-horns just like it says, just a bit less top end no biggy

[m00n]

Papertester,

Thanks for the story man very entertaining. Also nice to see someone else experiment too.

jt1stcav,

yeah even though I am already looking and asking about other speakers, I am not going to rush out and buy any. I AM going to finish my theater first. As a matter of fact I just... Well, I will hold off on that for now as it's not a done deal.

boomac

Glad I am able to help you there. I will be the first to admit, I ask a lot of questions. On a different forum not related to audio, they gave me a new nickname, Askinator2000 because I asked so many damn questions. But hey that's how you learn right?

Though it may get tiresome to some people who try to answer my endless questions, but I have had several people tell me the same thing you just did, that they have learned a lot from my questions. And ya know, that's what this place is all about.

And thanks for the kind words on the theater. If you go down into the Architectural area you will see a post I just made a few days ago with an image of someone elses theater I plan to copy from. Mine wont be as fancy, but I intent to try and make it as close as I possibly can. I just got done painting a second coat of black on the ceiling. Tomorrow I got another coat of black to put on the walls.

Oh and about the replacement on the center... I just want to have a perfectly matched front array. Not to mention I need (well ok want) a second rear to go in the back with my existing RC7.

[boomac]

mOOn,

That theater looks pretty sharp. Here in the Milwaukee area there is a guy that paints a room and makes it look like an old time theater house. I think he uses a special shading technique to show curtains and all. It's unbelievable. I have a row of three old seats from a downtown movie theater that would go great with his art work but I'm afraid to call him and get the number. I'll bet a few 7s and then some. We just finished the sound board and will be dry walling shortly. Hope to be done in a couple months. Time to win the lottery. Guess I better start playing it!

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Moon,

here is the link for the material:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3020610334&category=1499

This is for a 9' x 9' piece and it has a gain of 1.3. I saw that you have an infocus projector. I'm not sure what you mean by digital. If you have a projector (LCD, DLP or Tube) that projects on a screen this will work.

The screen really does make a difference compared to projecting on a wall.

The thing that I really like about this is that you can fabricate something that looks much nicer than a pull down screen. I framed my windows in molding and will frame the screen in matching molding.

Chris

[Deang]

Well, now that the thread has died down some, I want to go back and address the posts to me by the two boneheads.

Ill start with you Craig you say the only reason I like the RF7s is because they tone down the headache giving music (so called) I listen to. I can only say that this new genre of Rock sounds completely awesome through the RF-7s. So, I must therefore deduce that it is in fact the LaScalas that are the cause of your pounding skull not the music.

You then admit that its true that the RF-7s/RF-3s do a better job with this stuff, and I could probably just quit typing now and say I won the argument, but you had to go screw that up by continuing to type. You went on to say, but any music, Rock or otherwise that actually has some kind of detail, and is not one big slam of mass distortion, will, and does sound way better on Heritage speakers with the right amplification.

What does it matter what the signal is comprised of? If a recording is made, and it sounds good in the studio it should sound equally well in the home. What, you actually think these bands go into a studio just to see how sh!tty they can sound? Guitar tube amps, turned completely over, have a very distinctive dirty sound. Add a good distortion pedal or harmonizer into the mix, and things can get really nasty. In my heyday I played both a Gibson Flying V and Les Paul through a Fender Twin Reverb Ive used these sounds myself and I KNOW what they are supposed to sound like. Incidentally, Marshall and Fender tube setups use full range drivers no horns. At any rate, these are extremely complex waveforms, and the RF-7s can reproduce them without breaking up, without compressing, and without giving me a headache.

The new bands dont use any more distortion than Robin Trower, Uriah Heep, Deep Purple, Hawkwind, BTO, or Van Halen did. I think because of the improved quality of studio recording gear, and improvements in players for the home the CD can finally pump this stuff out in all its true glory.

How are you defining detail, and what other type of Rock or music are you referring to? Im 42 years old. I still listen to The Beatles, Three Dog Night, Nielson, Jethro Tull, Kansas, The Eagles, etc. Youre starting to sound like Kelly, treating me like I only listen to 3 CDs. I dont get what you are saying here. Cmon man, Ive got Cornwalls and the Scott in the basement, and I jump back and forth between these two systems daily. There is no freaking way Im going to say the Cornwall is more detailed than the RF-7. The RF-7s frame, or etch out the notes. Everything is delineated. Everything I play, any amp I put on them and it sounds good smooth as electric velvet. I do think the Cornwalls are better at retrieving ambient information, they are very airy but there is also a bit of a hard edge to most of the notes, which is always present detracting from the good things they are doing. They just dont get out of the way like the RF-7s do.

Whats next? Well, you went on to say that Klipschorns, Belles, and Scalas can be some serious ear-bleeders if not properly placed, using proper amplification. O.K., good setups make a lot of difference, Im not going to disagree with you here. But better setups dont change the entire sonic signature of a speaker. They make good speakers great, and mediocre speakers good. As it stands now, I consider the Cornwall a good speaker. I like the sound of the setup downstairs and it doesnt slip into the ear-bleeder category unless I really push it. Im looking forward to squeezing everything I can out of them but it will take time and more money. By comparison, you can slide a set of RF-7s out of their boxes, push them into the corners of your room and live happily ever after.

Ironically, I still believe the Cornwalls on the Scott, sound very much like the RF-7s on the AE-25 at the lower volume levels. It is apparent they share a similar character. O.K., you dont want to talk about the Cornwall you want to talk about the Big Three. I guess weve gotten to that point where you want to jump in and say the Cornwall is not a Scala, Belle, or K-horn. Personally, I believe its hair splitting. Whatever Ill move on.

So, where are we? Still at proper setup and proper amplification for those Scalas, Belles, and K-horns, because you say, they are just too accurate, and bring out the absolute worst in the chain. Theres that accuracy thing again, which as far as Im concerned doesnt mean much. There is more to accuracy than dynamics. At any rate, its not accuracy that makes horns so sensitive to dirt in the chain its their high sensitivity. The RF-7s come in at 102db/w more than enough to reveal any crap downwind. What do you mean by proper amplification tube amps? There might be a few folks here who disagree with you. More on that in a minute.

You then come in with this: The RF-7 speakers were completely designed to be forgiving of less then stellar Solid State amps but in turn are less accurate and articulate.

Huh? Am I really supposed to take this seriously? Craig, Im sorry but you are just flat wrong here. You are free to believe whatever you want, but I happen to know exactly what equipment Klipsch used to voice the RF-7, and less than stellar is not how I would describe it. The RF-7 is plagued by the same problem as Heritage garbage in, garbage out.

Less accurate and articulate, how did you come up with that one? It doesnt even make any sense. Solid state produces linear output. Tube amps produce non-linear output. Any tube amp with a damping factor lower than 5 tracks the impedance curve. The RF-7 was designed to sound great with great gear and it does. I dont know how to address the articulation issue except to say it is every bit as articulate as the Cornwall, and it can do it up to 110 db with vomiting up all over itself.

You say you have many poorly recorded CDs you can play on your RF-3's, but cannot stand to listen to them on your LaScalas. You claim this is because the LaScala is capable of showing just how bad the recording is. What a shame. I dont know what to say here without sounding like a prick. Oh well did you ever think the problem might be related to the LaScalas? Everything I own sounds good on both the Cornwalls and the RF-7s. I know the Scala has hair trigger dynamics and a fairly incisive midrange it might just be too much of a good thing with some recordings. It may not be that the recording is bad. I mean, the RF series stuff has fairly flat responses and by your own admission this stuff sounds good on the RF-3s. Maybe you should spend more time in your pickup truck and AC Delco System.

You tell me to quit making assumptions since Ive never heard properly powered K-horns, Belles, or LaScalas. Im not the one making assumptions here. No, Ive never heard the Big Three on good stuff, but I have heard Klipschorns, LaScalas, have owned Heresies, and do own Cornwalls. Like I said, setup and good gear changes things but it will not change the sonic signature of the speaker. I think I have a pretty good handle on what the Heritage sound is. You, OTOH, have never heard a set of RF-7s, not even on so called less than stellar solid state. So, whos making assumptions?

You then finish off by saying, Any decent speaker will sound horrible with music like Chevelle and 90% of the hard rock produced today. They mix that music to play on boom boxes and computers!!

I want to deal with the last statement first.

Bullsh!t. Someone posted that about a year ago and I thought it was Bullsh!t then too. So, is SACD recorded to sound good on boom boxes and computers? Just curious, because I have new CDs that sound better than all of my SACD reissues, and I only have two SACDs that sound as good or better. Studio recording professionals record and mix using quality studio monitors in a near field listening environment. I dont think you are going to get me to believe these engineers go into a studio with the express purpose of sabotaging a recording.

So, any decent speaker will sound horrible with music like Chevelle and 90% of the Hard Rock produced today. Well, youre wrong. It sounds good on Magnepan 1.5QRs, Dahlquist DQ-10s, Paradigm Studio Series, the big Bostons, the new Vandersteens, and the Phase Technology floor standers I recently listened to. However, that Chevelle CD sounds the best on the RF-7s, and damn good on the Cornwalls as well. Its a clean, dynamic, and well-mixed CD. I can hear every beautiful distorted note. There is no ear-bleed in my house.

Id just like to finish off by saying ONCE AGAIN that I have been collecting and listening to music since 1973, when I started out with my dads old AR-3s. Trust me, I own more than STP and Chevelle.

This hobby is about setting up a system that does the best job of playing the music a person likes to listen to, in their room, with their ears.

As far as m00n goes yes, he could really turn those Belles around with a good vintage tube amp and some tweaks. However, family first and I sure dont think hes losing anything by beefing up that Reference system.

O.K. Anarchist youre next: Since you wrote yours off a tongue in cheek, Ill go easy on you. Well take these one at a time.

1) Dean does listen to some nasty music most people would not want to hear very clearly. His Rf7's are well suited to this purpose.

This stuff only sounds bad when its not heard clearly. The RF-7s are well suited to hearing things clearly.

2) Dean does need someone else to join his 'flavor of the month (week?)" club so certainly he would desire Moon to continue making impulsive purchases and cycle through equipment more frequently than he needs to shave.

Actually, its more like Flavor of the Quarter Club. Over the last year or so, I would hang on to something on average of 3 to 4 months. I got to try several different things over this period of time, and since I was able to experience things first hand, I was able to draw some concrete conclusions based on experience.

3) Dean feels compelled to put down Heritage as a review of his posts show he went over the top denouncing Heritage without hearing it and then ate crow after listening to his first set of Heritage speakers.

This is for the most part true. I thought my first Heritage experience was outstanding. I really like the Heresies. I was just telling Craig a couple of weeks ago that a set of Heresies out of the box, sound better than Cornwalls. The Cornwall takes a little bit of work to do Rock-n-Roll. Not much though.

4) Dean's beloved RF7's had to undergo surgery in order to meet his discerning ear although he praised them to no end prior to said surgery. I believe you claimed they were the 'cats meow' only to turn around and have them neutered.

The RF-7s, unmodified, are some of the best speakers I have ever heard. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say I neutered my RF-7s. I built my crossovers using some of the best parts in the industry, and every value is identical with the exception of 1 resistor, which I lowered 2 tenths of an ohm. I replaced $50 worth of parts with $200 worth of parts and lowered the noise floor into the netherworld. Every aspect of the sound has been improved, and an already great speaker is now greater.

5) Dean has stated he has a fine appreciation for cheap, bookshelf speakers so his ear and judgement must be questioned.

Define cheap bookshelf speakers. RB-5? Old Advents? AR 11s?

6) Given he spends his weekends surrounded by multitudes of computers and the accompanying fan noise, it should be no surprise his ability to discern the greatness of Heritage versus the cacophony of sound produced by his mass-market, targeted-to-the-neophytes-of-the-audio-world RF7's is significantly impaired.

25 years in the industry means I have some trouble tuning the G-string on my guitar. Other than that I think my hearing is pretty good. So, greatness of Heritage huh? What great part are you referring too? The screaming midrange, the hollowness of the bass, or the nice muddled lower midrange?

[NOSValves]

Dean,

Who exactly started attacking Heritage people here ?? Why are you getting treated like a certain person ....... think about it ! Look at this 2 day 40 paragraph reply to people that were just funning with you !! Your taking this stuff to personal. Who ever attacked RF series speakers previous to your post ?

I still think the hard rock produced today sucks you can like it all you want that has nothing to do with me. ACDC , Van Halen , Aerosmith I can easily push to 110db+ in my acuostic hell of a room and love every chest pounding second of it slide in Chevelle turn it up and dive for the volume knob as soon as a heavy riff hits mass distortion THAT IS BUILT INTO THE MUSIC !! I still think the RF series was designed primarily for HT duty and SS gear and lacks detail that only a true fully horn loaded speaker can achieve.

I believe this music is laiden with over distortion because the band members think it's cool and so would the stoned out young punks that buy it for the most part. I personally think it sucks and sounds tolerable on RF series speakers but still horrible non the less. I have compared Reference to Heritage and for my music its Heritage all the way. I would take my Heresy's any day over the RF-3 hands down and I think this is a very fair comparision. I personally don't care for Cornwalls so far from my limited exposure. I know one thing there's no rope caulk or woofer dampening to my Lascalas or my Heresy's !! I have stock crossovers in all my speakers...Why ?? Maybe because I'm not listening to a mass of distortion !

Chill out buddy

Craig

[kev313]

"I believe this music is laiden with over distortion because the band members think it's cool and so would the stoned out young punks that buy it for the most part."

Well at least your not lumping everybody into one category or being too broad about your generalizations.

Kind of like...ACDC, Van Halen, and Aerosmith are crappy cheese rock that rightfully got booted out of place by Guns n Roses (yeesh. GnR!). But then again, I was born in the mid-seventies and don't want anything to do with YOUR music either.

Thank god Nirvana shook all the dust out.

[NOSValves]

Sh!t I believe Aerosmith is still teaching youngsters how to rock along with countless other rock bands from the 70's there still selling out standium after standium. The last rock concert I went to was full of young people that were mostly likely born in the late 80's early 90's and the singer on stage was nearing 50 !!

Craig

[Deang]

When did I slam the Heritage stuff, in that first post? Geez, I was only kidding. I was serious that if I had the money I would rather have another set of RF-7's than the Cornwalls, but it's not because I don't like the sound of the Cornwalls -- I just really like the sound of the RF-7's.

I just thought it was funny the way everyone was reacting because m00n didn't fall head over heels in love with the Belles -- like everyone had been violated or something. I then joked that m00n should go a head and tell everyone how the RF-7's kicked the crap out of the Belles -- so you're telling me this was taken seriously? What, has everyone forgotten my last 20 "Heritage is great" posts. Should we go back and dig up my posts in the threads where m00n was thinking about buying them?

Anyway, what I said in the last post stands. Until you actually hear RF-7's with good amplification and sources, please quit making assumptions about their sound. Maybe you should do what I did when I bought the Cornwalls -- get a set in your house so you can create an informed opinion.

BTW -- that '2 day' post only took me 45 minutes to write.

[garymd]

I saw my first Grateful Dead show in 1973 and when I go to Merriweather Post Pavillion on June 6th, more than half the sellout the crowd will be under 30. Unfortunatly, there are not enough good newer bands around like Nirvana, Counting Crows, etc. to sellout more than a bar. Just one old dudes opinion of course.

[NOSValves]

Dean,

I was not reacting to the fact that m00n didn't like the Bells at all. In fact he never said he didn't actually like them in his innitial post he said he decided he didn't have the space or resources to pursue them further. I was reacting to all the time and effort everyone gave him in advise. He emailed me personally for tube amps a number of times. I was reacting to his impulsive purchase of the speakers when they had no chance to saitsfy him ever in the room he had for them and the equipment he powered them with. I just felt it was all a waste !

Calling us Heritage owners loons and saying you would trade your Cornwalls for RF-7's in a heart beat isn't a slam against Heritage speakers .......Okay ! Well maybe not since Cornwalls aren't really Heritage anyway but us Heritage owners are still loons right I think anyone that would spend near 2K for a RF-7 when they could have real horns is a loon

Craig

PS: BTW -- that '2 day' post only took me 45 minutes to write. Yeah but 2 days to skeem and mull over in your head LOL !!!!

[Deang]

The Cornwall really isn't 'Heritage'?

Man, I got ripped off.

Yeah, I did think about it off and on for a couple of days.

I really wasn't slamming Heritage, but I do get a little giddy when the Heritage folks start freaking.

In all honesty -- if I had the money -- I would have tried to talk m00n into a trade. I'm just strapped until the middle of summer.

[NOSValves]

Why in God's name would you want to become a Heritage Loon !!!

I read here the other day that Cornwalls are not considered Heritage ....who knew !

Are you at work ??

[garymd]

m00n will never hear the end of that one.