tpg Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Ok... I just had a thought. Back when the old Heathkits and Eico kits, etc. were made, they couldn't have been using the highest quality resistors and caps. I mean, some of their resistors were 10% and more... ceramic caps in the signal path. And they supposedly sound great? How? I ask because I have been looking into tube design for a long time, and always quit before building because I know that it will cost me more than I have to spend on it. But, that is using mediocre parts. These days, parts can be amazing, if you have the $30 to spend on one film cap. But, how did they manage back then and still produce amps that can be listened to and enjoyed these days without any mods? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 A good circuit counts more for good sound than a poor one with good parts. Of course, a good design with good parts is the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpg Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Hmm... simple question, simple answer, I guess. Ok... well, what makes a 'good' circuit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 One that sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Dean it very correct. Look at the Triode electronics front end board for the Mark III's very much full of bargain parts and does a absolutely stunning job. It the circuit design. I put upgraded parts in certain spots in them and it brings out some more detail but they sound great even with basic Orange Drops as the main coupling caps. Scott amps are the same way they sound darn good with basic Xicon coupling caps they improve with better Capacitor choices for sure. Its all in the circuit and getting things debugged properly. The real freak of the entire bunch is the EICO HF-81 its a real freak of nature !! It imporoves greatly with some good parts in iut but in stock form if its still in reasonable electrical shape sound pretty darn good with the cheapest parts known to man or beast ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 The Wright amps are another example. Not the best parts in the world, but many here view them as a good second choice to a pair of Moondogs. The come highly recommended. The curcuit seems to be very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Not to complicate this matter, but what's the effect of the old iron vs new iron? Or the better old iron vs not so good old iron, like the small output trannies on something like the old Allied (or Knight) 333 receiver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Andy brings up a valid point and I believe to some degree its true. The older Iron is seasoned would be what I call it. I don't really think its better then the better current Iron being made I just think they settle in and become seasoned. Kind of like Cast Iron cylinder blocks from the 60's for race motors are known to be more stable. They become stabiler from the constant heat up and cool down effect. I bet current prosuction quality Transfomers 20 years from now have this same holly grail attached to them. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 dollar for dollar you get better output iron in a vintage amp than a new amp...with fewer sources, lower production nubers today for good output trannies prices have gone through the roof! anyone price MQ high-qualty trannies lately? ouch! tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I have about a pound of Flooby Dust in my shop. I could sell you some, but it is very hard to ship. That's what makes my upgrades sound so good. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 RANDOM THOUGHTS: Uh .. . The first MG-TD was a 1950 model. I have owned my 1952 MG-TD since 1977 and in 1981 I drove it from San Francisco to Chicago and back again and it was a WONDERFUL expereince. I agree that SOME high-end new tube amps are superb--a little over a year ago I was able to demo a pair of SE monoblocks that retailed for $7000 per pair, which is more than DOUBLE what my entire vintage system has set me back!! They sounded AWESOME! Toasters and other simple electrical appliances from the 1950's were built like tanks compared with the junk you can buy at Target today. Today in order to get stuff built with the care that went into common goods in the 1950's you have to buy exotic German or Swiss goods that carry super-high price tags. If someone were to build a pair of McIntosh MC-30's with the care that went into mine when they rolled out of the factory in 1957 they would have to charge MORE than $7000/pair in order to make any profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 vintage vs current If a potential buyer was shopping for the best "sounding" amp for their Klipsch speakers under say $1200 would they find more sonic value with: a. slightly used current product (ie Wright Sound, Cary Rocket 88's, Odyssey, mbl, HALO A23, etc.). I'm not very familiar with the new tube models at these price points. b. a new assembled kit like those from MapleTree Audio Design or an assembled product from some other small value focused provider c. a restored vintage amp DIY, or from by those on this board or even a leveraged kit from Curcio or Van Alstine. Would it be fair to say that the vintage amps provide a classic tube sound that is unique from the modern "audiophile" versions and this would be a taste reason to choose vintage purely for sonics (and not collectibility and looks)? So is if fair to use the vintage car vs modern car analogy on when comparing Klipsch Heritage powered by vintage electronics solution vs modern hot value priced boxes praised in mags like Stereophile and The Absolute Sound? I have driven a 1960 Triumph TR3A for over 20 years. It provides joy (and frustration) in a way unique to modern vehicles (including modern roadsters like BMW) but I wouldn't want it as my sole mode of transportation. For handling, top speed, 0-60, creature comforts, etc. it is nowhere near the BMW but it also is a fraction of the cost and provides attributes such as head turning unique looks, sound, feel, hands-on support, that make it no less desireable. It's just a different animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Its pretty simple in my mind Vintage amps = Value for the dollar Will new amps with better parts sound better Yes !! Will they cost more Oh Yea way more if you really want them to sound better. I would defy anyone to take one of my Scott amps and equal it on the new market in sound quality at this point and time for less than $1200 for a complete integrated amp with phono section or a separates package with phono capabilities . Separates would cost over $2500 easy. Like I said its all about Value the vintage approach is not the end all of sound. Its the end all of sound on a budget ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 And all this time I thought you were supposed to snort a line of Flooby dust to make the music sound good. Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I owned a 1967 Triumph Spitfire MKII from 1977 to 1982 and it was absolutely wonderful to drive around town. When I drove it from MD to GA it took 2 days for my body to stop vibrating after the trip. LOL Fun car. Everything I know about fixing cars I learned from owning that Triumph. They fly off the line but don't do to well over 60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 "But how many of those same listeners can reliably detect the difference between an Orange Drop and a Wonder Cap?" Or metallized polypropylenes to film and foils? I'm about to find out. As usual, I can't resist the temptation and will find out for myself -- at least as far as these parts in the speaker crossovers go. I do know the Auricaps in my tweeter circuit and the ICW's were a definite improvement over what was in there. I don't need emotional comfort, I just want to know the truth. If there hadn't been a notable improvement I would have said as much. Construction materials impact the sound -- I'm completely convinced of this. Cool thread for sure, and on the whole, I definitely see where Mark is coming from I thought Craig's hypothesis on transformers was interesting. The analogy may have some validity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddc Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Speaking of vintage amps updated with new parts, one of Craig's restored 299 A series I has made it's way onto ebay and is waiting for a bid... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3030269704&category=3280 Is that one of you chaps selling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 well craig tell us about that one on ebay...is it a good one? tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 ---------------- On 6/11/2003 3:28:59 PM Allan Songer wrote: Uh .. . The first MG-TD was a 1950 model. I have owned my 1952 MG-TD since 1977 and in 1981 I drove it from San Francisco to Chicago and back again and it was a WONDERFUL expereince. ---------------- It's funny how heritage klipsch and tube amps can turn to collector cars... I love MG's ... and currently own a 51 TD... but you drove it from San Francisco to Chicago? hope you brought some tools with you... ... Don't get me wrong, they are fun to drive and work on... but they require a lot more maintenance and don't accelerate, corner, or brake like a modern car. I still wouldn't trade mine for a new car three times it's value, so i think that says something. In 1948, it would have been the MG TC, similar but taller and thinner I have yet to buy my first tube amps... but "YET" is the key word. later... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 The old XPAG is a stout little motor--other than fatigue failure and the occaisonal broken crankshaft that is! When I drove it to Chicago and back it had about 2500 miles on a thorough mechanical restoration and it made it with only a couple of minor Lucas "Prince of Darkness" failures (generator and fuel pump)--but anyone with an old Brit car and common sense wouldn't even drive 50 miles from home without electrical spares on hand!! I once won a trophy at a Lotus gathering for "best excuse for not driving your Lotus to this meet." My excuse: "I have a Lucas garage door opener." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.