MBM135 Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 This is a follow-up to my post a couple months back. I'll try and be brief. 1. Bottom Line: The Scott is better. Main reason is that I feel the Jolida is bass-starved. Doesn't mean the Jolida sounds "bad" just that the Scott has such better bass hands down! Don't even need to listen for it--it is so obvious. Probably isn't a fair review though. I bought the WRONG Jolida. The 302 is supposed to have better bass, the KT88-based 502 is supposed to have ***-kicking bass and the EL84-based little 102 is also supposed to sport a better bottom end! So I messed up and failed to do the homework--I though the 102 would not have enough power and the 302 was too much cash--thus my decision to buy a 202B. 2. Jolida wins out on power--more headroom. But the Scott holds it's own and my room is not large enough to cause either unit to work hard. 3. Jolida was originaly better in the clarity department but once the rebuilt Scott setteled in it opened up and is now very detailed. 4. Both amps produce wonderful mids and highs but the Scott has a warmer presentation. Scott is better if you like all types of music as I do--from jazz, alternative to even Mettalica. Scott has the bass for the rock and the nice mids and highs for you "audiophile" jazz listeners. 5. I do not have faith in the reliability of the Scott. Jolida has a warranty and both units sound better than my H/K solid state rcvr. No slam on Craig--he did a phenomenal job but, hey, these are antiques! Having 2 minor technical issues. Right channel hiss caused by the right 6BL8 tube socket. Tuner cleaner failed to solve issue but moving the tube slightly with my finger eliminates the intermittent problem. Also, I noticed the right channel was stronger. I think I fixed this. See atch photo of my room. The white 1910 fireplace caused my wife to mandate Monster Navajo White 16 ga wire. I didn't buy enough so had 18 ft going to the left speaker and 12 ft to the right. I bought more wire and made them equal length which solved the problem, but the right channel is still a bit stronger causing me to have to adjust the balance a bit to get a center image. Jolida is right on. But, I am a perfectionist to a fault. Neither issue is worth the risk of sending this thing in for minor tweaks. At least not yet. The downside of vintage I guess. Any suggestions on wire/placement here would be great. I am constrained in room layout by the fireplace and other issues. Bottom line: Go with a Scott. But, be patient and find a beauty. Mine needed to works, let me tell ya! I have the same amount of money sunk into both units if you consider the wood case for the Scott that I don't use. Technical details: Speakers and CD listed below. Tubes used in Jolida are Electroharmonix EL34s and 12AT7s with Telefunken 12AX7s. Scott is equipped with Russian military 7189s, Sovtek rectifier, Jan Phillips 12AX7s and GE 6BL8s. The Teles produce unnoticable differences in either amp. What a waste of money there. Being that this is my hobby I am tempted to try other integrateds but feel the Scott will be unbeatable. I do not want to do a preamp/power amp combo--don't want extra wire and more stuff that can go faulty. Anybody tried a hybrid design? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Did you do the comparision with the Scott's tone controls flat? How many folks with Klipsch/Scott integrated combos use the tone controls set flat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Mike, Great review ! I really don't see your reliability statement though the warranty on the Jolida is how long ? I would repair the Scott for just as long as they will with the same shipping cost so ? Do you really think the Jolida has a chance in hell of still working any better then the Scott does after 40 years ? The channel imbalance can be a troublesome thing to me too but there is no great way to solve it and that is the draw back to vintage. Parts back them were just not built at the close tolerance of today especially in the control department ! I'm surprised by your Bass statements. I would of thought the Jolida with its extra wattage would of held its own there ! I'm also surprised that you find no difference using the TFK in either amp. But hey its your ears that matter ! Cheers Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Tuner cleaner ain't going to get it. You need to order some Caig Pro-gold from www.Partsexpress.com make sure you get the Pro-gold, it's the only product that can take the heat exhibited at the tube socket. This product will remove all of the oxidation that has accumulated over time. If you had a Scott manual, would see that the balance does not normalize until the volume control gets to three on the dial. That's just the way it is. It's no big deal really. There is a balance control, and that's what it's there for. Since the balance control is part of the circuit, it's in the circuit whether you use it or not. Being a perfectionist has nothing to do with it. Thanks for the update -- interesting. What about the midrange? How do the EL-84's stack up to their big brother EL-34's? There should be quite a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Nice review Mike, I had an opportunity to audition a few different tubes in my 222D a while ago and found only very minor differences, but unfortunately, with older tubes, we don't know how strong (or weak) they were. In my comparisons, I found that I did NOT like the beloved Smooth Plate Tele at all, but did like the Ribbed Plate. Maybe the SP were weak, maybe they work better in a different circuit, but I know that in the Scott, they sounded muffled. My wife even noticed the difference when sitting in the next room. Craig is right in that you cannot ignore the fact that you are comparing a newer Jolida to a 40+ year old Scott, but with the caps replaced, what can go wrong in the Scott that cannot go wrong in the Jolida? Perhaps pots and switches as they are mechanical, but once cleaned, they should serve you for years. As great a name that Marantz is, their vintage units are known for dirty pots and switches. When I got my 2270 the switches were in terrible shape, but a few drops of De-Ox-ID took care of them and they are like new. All in all, I love my Scott, though it requires more attention than my SS equipment. For serious listening, it beats all that I have. Someday I'll have to hear SET...though if it lacks bass I will not be as apt to like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul cbc Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Mike, Thanks for the review. Nice to get your thoughts. I had a suggestion for wire that you had asked about. I have some Audoquest F-14 wire. It is single stranded oxygen free copper, white and flat. Best of all it is not expensive. I bought this several years ago, but suspect something similar is still made. Hope this helps. Good luck! paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I am curious were you spray the cleaner on the controls? I have a PAS3, and when I take the knobs off there doesn't seem to be a place to spray. Do you do it from the inside? Did you say you do this while its running? I have cleaner from radio shack, will it work or should I buy ProGold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 You have to spray from the backside or inside the chassis. When you look at the control you will see where all the wires, resistors and capacitors solder to the control the will be a opening you spray this full while turning the pot. Then let the excess drain out and let it air out for a hour. After that you should be good to go ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM135 Posted June 22, 2003 Author Share Posted June 22, 2003 Thanks guys, Didn't realize the balance doesn't normalize until 3 on the vol dial. I'll see if I notice a difference. I'll continue to play with both amps for awhile. Bass difference is most noticable with drums--they sound firmer and more real on the Scott and flatter with less authority on the Jolida. Both have their merits. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 You two channel nuts have me thinking about a Scott. First let me explain. In my larger home theater room two channel just doesn't cut it. Stereo sounds so empty in there. Almost every time I listen to music I will switch to stereo for a few minutes and then right back to multi channel. I always say to myself that I don't understand why anyone these days would still listen to stereo. But, you guys did convince me to go with a 6 channel McIntosh SS power amp. It was an attempt to achieve a more tube like sound that you rave about. I have a smaller 16' x 20' room that I use for testing and comparing speakers. I never actually listen to music in this room. I just A/B speakers and mods to them. About a month ago I finished up a mod using a pair of Klipschorn bass horns with non Klipsch top ends. For the past month I keep going into this room and listen to this pair of speakers. Not like the years past where I complete a speaker and move them out of the room and start again. What suprised me about this room is that I'm enjoying listening to two channel in there. I think I will set the room up with a pair of University Classic speakers and a tube amp. This bass horn has about a 107db efficiency,and has a cleaner more accurate sound compared to the Klipschorn. It should sound quite nice with a tube amp. I looked on ebay this morning and saw about four Scott tube amps that were about to end. I was surprised to find that many them. What kind of power do these various amps have that you guys are using? NosValves, are you the person that reconditioned Mike Lindsey's integrated Scott? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Mike, Great post. Thanks for getting your experience out here on the forum. I've read with interest your posts from some weeks back. The Jolida obviously is attractive at it's price point, but the 202 is definitely not an improvement over the 299. It would be interesting to put several of their models on a head to head comparison. This is one of the things that's fun about tubes. Each way of skinning the cat has it's own interpretation and flavor of how it does the music. Next time you have a chance to compare some more equipment, hope you get your take on it posted. Regards, Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 ---------------- On 6/21/2003 12:53:30 PM mike stehr wrote: Did you do the comparision with the Scott's tone controls flat? How many folks with Klipsch/Scott integrated combos use the tone controls set flat? ---------------- I do, although I keep loundness switch on. Seems to be the right setting most of the time with my cornwalls. Great review BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 You keep the loudness switch on all the time? You're kidding, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 Allan, All Scott amps have a dot next to each switch to destinglush the default recommended position and loudness default position in on. It sounds better in most situation with the 299A/B . Some of the later amps don't seem to sound as good with it on. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 ---------------- On 6/22/2003 11:38:24 PM Allan Songer wrote: You keep the loudness switch on all the time? You're kidding, right? ---------------- First of all, my system has been in the basement since I got the scott so I'm waiting to see how it sounds when I move it upstairs (maybe tonight). I've very rarely, if ever, used the loudness switches on my old amps but the scott is different. It sounds really flat without it, then you turn it on and WHAM. Now you hear the music the way it was intended. I don't think I'll ever turn it off. Any other scott 299b owners feel the same way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 ---------------- On 6/22/2003 11:38:24 PM Allan Songer wrote: You keep the loudness switch on all the time? You're kidding, right? ---------------- The loudness control is defeated automatically when the volume is turned up on those amps. Also, regarding the use of tone controls, why not use them? I know they can introduce various degradations in sound. The bottom line is-get the amp to sound its best. To say that it's not an even comparison is silly. Compare one component at its best vs. another at its best. You wouldn't think of doing that with speakers. "Well, those Klipschorns are in the corner, so to get a fair comparison with these electrostats, I'll just put them in the corner, too." C'mon. Tone controls were meant to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Thanks for the help Craig. I was getting some "fuzz" low level distortion this weekend while listening to the Cornwalls. I was playing Miles Davis, and Eric Clapton unplugged. What an aggravation. I removed the top and sprayed the cleaner. One hour later harmony again. Quite the soundstage on the Eric Clapton cd. Also put in a Tracy Chapman cd and played "New Beginings". If you haven't heard it, it gives incredible bass at low volume. I am currently using a BK ST202, very temporary , with a PAS3 preamp. Waiting to decide what to do with the ST70. I run it with loudness on, unless turning it up past 80db. Great sound. As for flat controls, it has separate bass and treble per channel. There is a line on the face plate in the straight up position. I line it up with the line on the knob. Seems to be a half turn on the knob. Givin the knobs are installed in the correct position, is this considered flat? The line on the knob is lined up with the spline underneath. If the bass is turned pass the position mentioned above it distorts immediatly? Not so with treble. Problem with preamp? Also has a filter switch. Sounds horrible with the switch turned on. Love the forum, you guys are great. can't get any good info from the stereo shops in Tampa. Hope this helps anyone with a PAs3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 Like I said. Once I get my gear to its final resting place I will begin to play around with it more (I haven't even biased it yet). Currently it's in my concrete basement and of course I've used the tone controls now and then but for most of what I've listened to so far, flat has been great. Different recordings/sources will require adjustments. I also have been using an EQ with it on occasion and adjusting the tone with the 10 bands it allows me. I can't imagine the loudness kicks off when volume is turned up. How is that possible? If you turn it off while music is playing it certainly makes a difference in sound. What I've noticed with the scott compared to other amps is that the loudness impacts all ranges as opposed to just bass output. If there's something I'm missing with all this, please let me know. I am a tube newbie but I thought I at least knew how to use the amp correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 bclark421, Sorry if I was ranting and you weren't even directing your comment to me. LOL Maybe I was confused. It wouldn't be the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted June 23, 2003 Share Posted June 23, 2003 I think I was the first person to ever post a message hear extolling the virtues of the Scott 299/299B and I've owned at least 7 or 8 299/299B over the years and I never once thought the amp sounded "better" or allowed the music to "sound the way it was meant to sound" with the loudness switch on. "Loudness" is such an artifical EQ boost--a trick on your mind and ears--at super low volumes it guess it might have some value, but even then I tend to avoid them. I wasn't aware that the "loudness" feature cut out automatically on the 299 at high volume. Interesting . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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