mace Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 This ain't bad either. Although the "ess's" are a bit harsh. I remember a local college band "The Dorks" who had a song where the chorus went: "School lunch, it sucks! School lunch, it sucks!" The Replacements video reminded me of them. Mace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Where do you draw the limit? KFC and McDo users... No transplant for you! ---------- The grade sevens last year did some nutrition research between fast foods and a lunch from home for my Family Studies class. The fat content and calories in KFC made McDonalds and the rest look like nutritious health food. I was shocked by the numbers when they presented their findings to the class. Maybe they should just ask if you want the regular or family bucket heart attack special with your meal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I see here that some people are saying that SET amps are for 80 or 85 db listening levels. Doesn't it matter a whole lot where exactly the listener is sitting in relation to the speakers? Doesn't it matter a whole lot the efficiency of the speakers? If my Khorns are 104db/1 watt/1 meter, then 3 watts ought to be getting pretty close to 108 db/1 meter. Back up a few feet and I'm still enjoying a fairly brisk volume level. Certainly more than 85db. As my ears get older, the toll of high volume listening over the years is showing more and more. I can't tolerate much more than what my SET/Khorn combo is producing right now for volume. The only needs for more power at this point is headroom, the occasional spurt of higher volume listening, and to push boosted bass frequencies . . . . But how to do that without giving up the wonderful SET sound that I'm so enjoying right now? Of course, I've only tried a few different tube amps, it may be that I'd be just as happy with the sound quality from a nice PP amp or integrated, especially with a little more power. I didn't go from PP to SET as so many other did, my only extended experience with tubes is SET. Thanks to this forum, even with the childish bantering, there is an overwhelming amount of information available, and the possibities for experimenting seem endless. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I say NOOOOO to a discussion on fat calories. We are all guilty of sitting in our favorite chair, cracking a cold bevarage, propping our feet up, closing our eyes, responding to this ridiculously long thread, and listening to our favorite music selection after dinner. When we should be taking a walk or riding a bike around the neighborhood. Oh, what was the topic again "Eico" or something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Greg, The math your using to determine the Db a 3 Watt set can produce isn't all accurate. The reason being the Specs for the speakers are for a continuous test signal. A 3 watt amp can not play music at a average dB level that 3 watts will produce if it was asked to the result would be one large mass of distortion a 20 watt amp can not play music at 20 watts either more like 5 would be my guess before distortion. The rest of the wattage is used by peaks or transients. So what I'm getting at is a SET amps sweet spot is in the millawatt area where it still has a reasonable amount of headroom. At the sweet spot they may very well be the sweetest sounding amps on earth. The problem is that to many of us that is just not enough for the type of music we listen to and the volume we listen at . While others find it ultimately pleasing and that is great. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Craig, I love the way you tiptoed through that reply to Greg Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 ---------------- On 8/14/2003 7:12:53 AM NOSValves wrote: Greg, The math your using to determine the Db a 3 Watt set can produce isn't all accurate. The reason being the Specs for the speakers are for a continuous test signal. A 3 watt amp can not play music at a average dB level that 3 watts will produce if it was asked to the result would be one large mass of distortion a 20 watt amp can not play music at 20 watts either more like 5 would be my guess before distortion. The rest of the wattage is used by peaks or transients. So what I'm getting at is a SET amps sweet spot is in the millawatt area where it still has a reasonable amount of headroom. At the sweet spot they may very well be the sweetest sounding amps on earth. The problem is that to many of us that is just not enough for the type of music we listen to and the volume we listen at . While others find it ultimately pleasing and that is great. Craig ---------------- Well the ability of recreating music peaks without clipping ain't the only variable in the much more complex "sound perception" system. A 4.5W amp will get into clipping pretty soon, even on 104 dB K-Horns. Saying otherwise would be lying. So what if it clips "gracefully", you won't probably not notice it is into clipping. Read the classic article from Herb Reichert "Flesh and Blood" (a google search will quickly lead you to it). His approach is pretty interesting. A much bigger impact, in my opinion, on the "perceived sound" with regard to transient and peak handling will be the slew rate of an amp. The slew rate will give you a good idea of the ability of the amp to react quickly to a peak or not. Look at it as an indicator of the "inertia" of the amp. A powerful amp with a sluggish slew rate will sound much more mushy and slooooow than a low power amp with a good slew rate. Now this being said if anyone wants to recreate a Grateful Dead concert SPL level with a 4.5 W SET on K-Horn, he'll be heading for a big deception. These amps just can't do that. I wish you would have made your opinion on low power amp on another thing than the Paramour, which won't give you the slightest idea how good and powerful can a SET sound. While a signal trace on a scope has some things to do in relation with musical reproduction, it is far from providing all the answers though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 ---------------- On 8/14/2003 9:04:46 AM painful reality wrote: A much bigger impact, in my opinion, on the "perceived sound" with regard to transient and peak handling will be the slew rate of an amp. Now this being said if anyone wants to recreate a Grateful Dead concert SPL level with a 4.5 W SET on K-Horn, he'll be heading for a big deception. These amps just can't do that. ---------------- Jeff, interesting point. How would you rate the slew rate of the Horus? It sounds pretty fast to me ... The second quote above just opened a really wide gap in the offensive line of the SET team. I expect to see a linebacker with the name "DEAN" on the jersey charging through any moment waving the "I told you so!" flag and screaming, "Push me pull you !!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 ---------------- On 8/14/2003 10:04:49 AM Chris Robinson wrote: Jeff, interesting point. How would you rate the slew rate of the Horus? It sounds pretty fast to me ... The second quote above just opened a really wide gap in the offensive line of the SET team. I expect to see a linebacker with the "DEAN" on the jersey charging through any moment waving the "I told you so!" flag and screaming, "Push me pull you !!" ---------------- The slew rate of the Horus should be pretty fast though I haven't measured it (my guess would be pretty high tought). For this second quote, well... I should have add "anyone wishing to listen to slow amps at high volume, be my guest...". Big amps have usually low slew rate. Amps from Audio Research will have typically 40 V/uS slew rate. By comparison OTL like the Tenor and the Atma-Sphere are in the 600 V/uS region. The Horus slew rate would probably fall in between the OTL range and the powerful "snails". This being said. I am not an advocate for a particular topology. I am not pro or anti high power, low power etc. My goal is mainly to say there is more than this "ability to recreate a peak without clipping" which is, for the most part, irrelevant to evaluate if the power of an amp will suits our need or not (when having high efficiency speakers of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 ---------------- My wife had the camera. Life has a cruel sense of humour as it was the only freakin time she took it with her since I bought it! ---------------- I forgot to comment on this one ... I truly believe that women are endowed (yes) with a "sixth sense", honed from eons of evolution, that tells them when to go into the preventative maintenance mode. Or perhaps she had a little chat with the beautiful mysterious woman the day before ... Something like, "My husband seems a bit listless lately ... Would you mind dancing in the window for him? I'll be sure to take the camera out for the day so there'll be no record ..." I can see it. That's got to be it. And then Nancy called Audrey and said, "Let's blow our husbands' minds ... Here's the plan ..." Yeah, THAT'S IT! THAT'S THE TICKET! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 I forgot to comment on this one ... I truly believe that women are endowed (yes) with a "sixth sense", honed from eons of evolution, that tells them when to go into the preventative maintenance mode. ---------------- I think the above evolutionary result is a syndrome, in fact it is commonly known as Preventive Maintenance Syndrome... Just my 2¢ & j/k of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiohead Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Ummmm....I like McIntosh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Jeff, I wish you would have made your opinion on low power amp on another thing than the Paramour, which won't give you the slightest idea how good and powerful can a SET sound. My opinion on SET is from a bit more than just Paramours. I have auditioned Moondogs setup by Ron himself and on 3 occasions now did extensive listening to custom Kornoff 45 based amps in a bi-amped setup with SS on the bottom. I'm sure SET can be great for some people. Its just that I hate listening to everyone describe it as the only way to hear the soul of the music its just not true. Heck here lately I read one post where it was stated as the only tube amps to really sound like tubes !! Give me a break Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Much like Craig says, the thing that gets annoying in SET discussions is when people act like it is the ultimate, on a whole nother level higher than push-pull, etc. etc. SET is on a different level, but whether that level is higher or lower depends on what the listener wants out of music in his particular circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 ---------------- On 8/15/2003 8:29:51 AM paulparrot wrote: SET is on a different level, but whether that level is higher or lower depends on what the listener wants out of music in his particular circumstances. ---------------- I think that is a very fair statement ... It depends what your tastes are, how your ears are tuned, what kind of music you listen to, your speakers, your room, your source, and what kind of cocktail you have in your hand at a given moment. I think that some of us SET-fans just want to share the excitement we feel when we hear great music coming from our total setup, room included. I don't think we want to cram it down your PP throats, but if that's the way it comes across, I'll apologize first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Wow! I just finished reading this thread and I can honestly say I sure do miss this place. How you all doing, fellas? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Yeah, seems neither of us have been here in quite awhile. Evidently, I dropped in and suddenly the bottom falls out! Lordy. Nothing like a dose of horrifying SET vs PP or EICO vs SCOTT debate to get the day rolling. And to think I thought I was cured... Good to see you Mike. Hope you have been doing well - sounds like things are looking up your way. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Thanks, Mobile! Yeah, with being out of work for a few months I wasn't able to make the Myrtle trip this year, but will be up there next year to collect my bottle of wine from you. For all the money I have put into my car over the last 6 months I could have bought some K-Horns, Moondogs, Syrah preamp and cables, and still had a little left over for a 299 and HF-81. I'm doing what I want to do though and having a good time doing it. I'm still enjoying the Scott 299A that Craig tweaked (it might have been the last one he did for free - Thanks Craig!) along with the La Scala's that Q-Man refinished for me. The only upgrade is a quad set of Telefunken 12AX7's I scored off of eBay. Talk to you soon, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Hi Mike, really nice to see you posting again! I am glad things are working out job-wise and car-wise. You should post a photo of those LaScalas of yours for all the "newbies" around here who haven't seen them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Here they are and they sure are awesome !! http://www.soundwise.org/rigs/mikelindsey.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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