NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 2) Most of the "expansion of luxuries" like all the extra TVs you are talking about, new cars and whatever, is the result of "expanding credit" not increasing income. I shudder to think how complicated this might be to explain, but I'll take a stab at one detail: The "average" family today has about $22,000 in credit card and other revolving debt. In real dollars, that's about 50X the amount of debt for a similar family in 1955. This is not then "an expansion of living standards" at all, because the people don't actually OWN the stuff being counted as "higher living standards." No argueing the Debt problem but who's choice is that ?? The people holding the credit cards. People didn't buy with credit back in the day which today demishes there REAL INCOME paying the interest ! I say the Debt is the problem. If people would live the way people lived in the 50's and 60's only buying what they can pay for with cash you can live much more affordably you just can't have it all now ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Max. Of course, thank you c7s. Thank you!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I'm gonna go out now and get an oil change for the little red Focus I bought new for my daughter, paid cash too; being a Union guy I made a good living and can do things like that, blue-collar brute that I am. :-) She's away from school on Christmas break. She goes to the U of I in Urbana-Champaign, an excellent true university that won a pair of Nobels this year. In Socialist fashion this school is subsidized by the citizens of Illinois and being a Union man I can afford to pay Bridgid's tuition and living expenses out of pocket. Bridgid is away in DC visiting her sister the Left Wing Government Lawyer. Being a Union man I could afford her education at the U of I and U of Wisconsin-Madison out of pocket also. Damn those Unions. Enabling the transition of my family from Blue-Collar to Professional. The nerve of some people. I turn 55 today and officially start my retirement, my Union pension pays me more than working did. I feel good. I love all you guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I readily admit, this part of the case is carefully and gracefully shaded in subtle tones. Doesn't make it less real. Workers are getting picked clean. What will happen when all the dept is due? Well, here's a factoid: As the number of personal bankruptcy cases began to swell geometrically, Congress immediately moved to "Bankruptcy Reform" to block access for the little weenie, to the SAME RIGHTS AS THE BIG CORPORATIONS - which is to "write off the debt" So, Worldcom simple writes off $30Billion in obligations to vendors, employees, stockholders, and banks - no problem. But when John Jones want's to write off his $22,000, he's a lazy, contemptable "deadbeat" who must be stopped from "abusing" the Bankruptcy laws. There's one I'm in full agreement with Mark. By the way TB I made enough to retire at 55 without a union. I did it the old fashoned way. I worked long and hard established a business on real estate that I went deeply in debt for, took home less money than I recieved when I was working for others and retired as much of that debt as I could. There is no one way. I do however participate in that Social Security thing. SSDI. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Rick---Good for you. I'm not one to begrudge the other fella. I love Capitalists and investors, wouldn't have had work without them. I was content to work for others but savvy enough to get from them for all I could. Basic economics works for workers as well as owners though many workers don't know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Mark, I'm a cold hearted blue collar semi republican conservative (talk about a weird mix). I believe that anyone can go out and make a reasonable living in this country if they have the balls and gumption. Why do I say this !! Because I have done it now in 2 careers with nothing more then determination and willingness to work and learn. The problems with this country are mostly the people becoming lazy and wanting everything handed to them on a silver platter. Why else do people from all nationalities come to this country and flourish? Its simple hard work and determination. The average income in this country has fallen because of the publics laziness ! No other reason that I can see at least from my vantage point. Look at Dean for instance he is not college educated and is supporting his family on a single income very comfortably ! If he gave up audio and other necessities I'm sure he could give up the weekend job It can be done ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I just took a peek out the window. All alone, out in the street, was a good friend of my daughter, a 12 year old boy, all by himself, lost in his personal fantasy, swishing back-and-forth a headless golf club (his Dad's an instructor, BTW), obviously decapitating (like the club), goring, disembowling his imagined adversaries. He and his brother's are home-schooled, his family fundamentalist Christian. Maybe this is break time, or maybe the equivalent of P.E. He may be stabbing dragons, Charles Darwin, or Satan (not sure), but I sure don't see the neighborhood Pagan kids out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 ---------------- On 1/8/2004 1:39:07 PM mdeneen wrote: "The average income in this country has fallen because of the publics laziness ! No other reason that I can see at least from my vantage point." -------------------- I respectfully request you get a step ladder and improve your vantage point. "Oh THOSE trees over THERE?" mdeneen ---------------- Funny sorry but I just don't look at things from a ladder with a bleeding heart ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I grew up in a neighborhood made up of publics & Catholics, white & blue collar workers, Republicans and Democrats. We got along. We werent poor but we were far from rich. We got to eat out on birthdays. One Halloween, my mother dressed my brother and me up and we carried a sign between us. He wore jeans, work boots, a flannel shirt and a baseball cap. He carried a hammer. I wore a suit and fedora and carried a brief case in my free hand. The sign said - Democrat or Republican Get out and Vote. I think the point is that we respected each other for what we were and what we thought. We trusted the process. TBrennen, maybe, as a union leader, you have always hated and mistrusted the other side. Thats too bad. There are plenty of good people on both sides. Your statement about white collar workers says a lot. These people are the bedrock of the GOP and now theyre gonna get the shaft. I love it. I sometimes think there are people who would like to see things get worse, for our country, just so Bush doesnt get any credit. I'm sure there were people that felt the same way about Clinton. I hope I never have to crawl in a fox hole with either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syclone385 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Oh My, You have Pagans in your neighborhood? The reason you don't see them is they are in the public school where they belong! Just kidding, my sister is Pagan and is raising my nephew as such. He is just as quick to participate in Dragon slaying as the Christian kids around the corner. I just read a DVR review and I'm confused as a possum in headlights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Craig-- Like you're the only fella that ever hit a lick. There's lots people out there who work their tails off and don't do too well, some are working 2 or 3 jobs. Maybe they're not too smart or very clever, so what, does that make them fair game to get a raw deal? The hypocrisy from you Righties is when you complain that nobdy values hard work but when all somebody has to offer is the ability to work hard you don't want to pay him anything. So who sets the value? People work their asses off in places like MacDonalds and get paid jack****. You ever see anybody sitting around ****in the dog at MacDonalds? Or at the Turtle Wax carwash? It's like the less you're paid the harder you have to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Anyone ever think we might be headed for a nasty DEPRESSION? Hard to imagine how we would get out of it this time.... There just has to be a limit to how much funny money can be printed up.....I remember those German postage stamps from a half century ago that were continuously overprinted....like from 37 cents to 7 trillion dollars.....eventually reality sets in..... It occurs to me that the Federal govmnt don't mind all those illegal workers who pay into the social security with never a chance of ever redeeming it.....this, as I understand it, is a significant boon and one of the reasons the Fed doesn't want to mess with a good thing...... not so good for many looking for work around here...... c7s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Boomac---Yes, things have to get worse before they can get better. I love to see White Collar workers who supported the GOP getting the shaft because it will open their eyes as to where their real interest lies and speed along things getting better. Look, nobody whose name isn't over the door has a real interest in the GOP, blue or white collar makes no difference. There are the owners and then there are the rest of us; workers are workers and an office is just like a factory. But white collar types, even low level, low paid ones with no power, have traditionally aligned themselves with the owners. Being unable to even identify where they really fit into the scheme of things they were doubly unable to advance their own interests. Now my take on free market economics is that when everybody looks to his own interests things will hash themselves out and an equilibrium will be reached. That there is virtue in looking out for yourself. Fine, that's what I've done and I make no apologies for it. But what about the poor bastard who can't even identify his own interest, much less work towards it? Well the GOP and the business interests it serves can always be counted on to be too greedy, overdo it and give away the game, that will happen soon. Then when enough people get their heads out of their asses things will get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 fini, Our household is a homeshooling, one breadwinner, Christian family. We enjoy slaying dragons!. We also interact with the real world and are not hiding in our basement (we don't have one). My job doesn't pay a whole lot, and two of the kids are just about to finish college. We try to pay as we go or do without. That's why we only have a 13 inch tv. I, for one, have better things to do than sit around watching much tv. I am not criticizing those on here who do, those who have great HT systems for sure. Mark, 3DZ, others, It looks like many of us are really ending up on the same page, and we have all remained civil about it. Great posts and explanations. What you have been saying is what makes me shudder at the thought of the immigration changes our president wants to put in place. First, we still support slavery by moving industry and assembly overseas. Then we let people come over the border and be undocumented, so we can pay them less. Companies like Wal-Mart have awful emplyess rules, and stifle local business, but in our greed and always wanting more for less, we continue to shop at the evil kingdom. Employees, many of whom need the income, are forced to work after they punch out from their shift, to straighten up their work area. Or get fired. Little or no benefits. Did you mention unions? Oh, sorry, we don't need you any more. I have not been pro union before. However, people in this country have swallowed a very big story and we will pay the price for it someday. We are starting to now. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Tom, the Democratic Party has had control of this country for most of my life. Quite frankly, I don't see a lot of difference between the two. It's not the politicians that make this country great. It's the men and women who take personal responsibility for themselves and their families. The people that say, "there's opportunity out there and I'm going to take advantage of it." It still happens every day though it's not as easy because of the damn government regulation, (yes, some is good)and hugh added costs created by every kind of tax they can think of. When it comes to this stuff it matters little what party is in power. The Democrats promise and the Republicans don't. SOS! When there is no opportunity or should I say, when people believe there is no opportunity We will be in trouble. We'll all work for the darn government and just who the heck will the government be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 "Employees, many of whom need the income, are forced to work after they punch out from their shift, to straighten up their work area. Or get fired." Why doesn't the whole shift just clock out and leave? Let 'em fire the whole shift, it's Walmart's loss. Why doesn't all the Employee's in every Walmart in the country just say: Hey! I ain't gonna clean my work area on my time! And just clock out and leave! Are they going to fire every Employee in every Walmart in the country? Oh well! There's a Carpet Cleaning joint in town, (they are a large outfit) You get to take a half-hour lunch, but yet they won't pay you for a hour. They say you can take your break and lunch in the van between jobs. WTF is that all about?! My Fiance's sister worked for this outfit and brought that up. I told her if I worked for them, I'd tell the boss the van's gonna sit in a parking lot for a hour, unless you pay me for the half-hour. She said I would be fired. I said that's OK, I was looking for a job when I found that one. That's slavery, pure slavery, IMO. (Unless you want to work for them for free.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Mike, An annonimous report to the state or federal wage and hours office would correct that and produce an audit. I don't think an unscrupilous employer should get away scott free just the audit will drive him to drink. Wal-Mart has been fined and sued for back pay for the poor decisions of some of it's managers, who I presume were disiplined. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodog Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 ---------------- On 1/8/2004 1:05:06 PM fini wrote: Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Max. Of course, thank you c7s. Thank you!! ---------------- I agree. Thanks! woo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Hey I'm not saying that people that clean Hotel rooms or dig ditches are lazy ! If that is what they are doing I say there doing it by choice ! No one is forced to do anything in this country and anyone can achieve what ever they choose too. I just do not have a bleeding heart for them. There are there by there own doing. A friend of mines wife cleans hotel rooms part time by the way and makes a pretty darn good chunk of change just off tips ! This same friends sun works on a crew doing nasty foundation work basically crawling around in the mud !! He is a real worker.... you know what he grossed last year !! 60K Laborers that Dig ditches are not homeless I believe there supporting there households Nothing wrong with manual labor or flipping hamburgers ! But I'll be darned if its mine or anyone elses fault that there doing it ! Craig PS Mark your twisting what I say into things I never said when did I attack teachers or cops ?? Are they not making a living ? Are they poor ?? These people are doing just fine ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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