The difference between Liberals, Conservatives, and Southerners...

[jnorv]

If you look at the FBI uniform crime reports (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/02cius.htm), an interesting observation can be made. For the most part white people kill white people and black people kill black people. Total murders for each race is about the same. The murder rate is greatly different. The rate among whites is on par with that of Western Europe. GB and Japan are anomalies.

Jim N

[Painful Reality]

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On 1/5/2004 11:48:30 PM DeanG wrote:

"...fuedal system gives them very low productivity..."

I don't really understand this comment.

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You must understand that our peasants are not really productive with their pikes.

There's no bread? Let them eat cake!

[AndyKubicki]

Before this stage, men are just selfish, violent sociopaths with very high intellect. The intellect is in the space age, and the spirit is in the Middle Age filled with nothing but darkness, brutality and bloodlust. You don't reason against that, you simply wait and hope it changes.

Or you shoot it!

Dean, wasn't there a recent discussion about trolling?

[maxg]

"You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. "

As a non american living in Europe I find this example rather odd with the following reasoning and questions coming to mind:

1. How likely a scenario is this? I would hope the probability is on a par with being struck by lightening - in which case, bearing in mind you are carrying a presumably metal gun arent you merely trading one low risk for another?

2. I thought it was illegal to carry a consealed weapon anyway - or is this Glock on display?

3. In a gun carrying society isnt it more likely the above lunatic is carrying his own Glock, .45 or shotgun?

4. Huge knife. Does the size matter? If the blade is 6 inches rather than 4 inches does that make you more or less likely to shoot?

5. When the said southener pumps his 17 shots in the direction of presumed attacker how many other people are in the street? Does the usual "friendly fire" excuse/apology apply?

6. I assume the "mere seconds" in the story is so that no-one does anything silly like shouting "Stop - I have a gun!" or, even firing a warning shot over the "attackers" head. Again though we come back to the location of the gun you are carrying. In those mere seconds how likely is it, especially in such a panic situation, that you can get the gun out, aim and fire - hitting your target, preferably before he plungs this huge knife into your chest, ideally instead of?

I dont know - this smacks of a very American paranoia to me. I have never owned a gun, never lived in a society where gun ownership was encouraged and only ever really seen a handgun on the hip of a Greek Policeman.

Frankly I am not sure it is really something missing in my life.

One final question. Do people walk down streets in America, deserted or otherwise? The impression we get from the TV is that you guys drive from the living room to the bedroom. Arent you more likely to be mowed down by said lunatics 3 ton SUV than stabbed by his huge knife?

[AndyKubicki]

Guns will disappear when men grow up. That's about the simplest and most direct way to say it. "Grow up" in this sense means to attain a sliver of enlightenment about their own being, and it's relationship to the Universe and all it's beings.

We are probably the most "grown up" culture on this planet, and we are "grown up" enough to know the reality about the lack of some other cultures' maturity. One can be very enlightened about one's own being, but one will not continue being if one does not appropriately appraise the hostility of those around. It is the grown ups that will need to keep the guns to keep the immature from using their guns. Guns will not disappear in the near future....unfortunately, neither will ignorance.

Dang Mark, you're getting me depressed...where's mah gun!?

[AndyKubicki]

6. I assume the "mere seconds" in the story is so that no-one does anything silly like shouting "Stop - I have a gun!" or, even firing a warning shot over the "attackers" head. Again though we come back to the location of the gun you are carrying. In those mere seconds how likely is it, especially in such a panic situation, that you can get the gun out, aim and fire - hitting your target, preferably before he plungs this huge knife into your chest, ideally instead of?

Oh please! And then what? Wait for the Police to prosecute him? Or let him go on to some otjher poor sucker who has no weapon and will not fare as well...Drop him right there and save a few innocent lives!

...for duty and humanity!

[AndyKubicki]

Does anyone remember that crazy guy in the east (might have been NY) that shot up a bunch of people on the train? How many innocent victims were shot? What if there were one person on that train who had a weapon and was in position to use it? How many innocent lives could have been saved? Guns are neither good, nor bad. Nuclear fission is neither good nor bad. It's all on the morality of the person in posession. Like Dean said, you can use a rock to kill as well...but that won't get the press that a bad gun will.

[maxg]

"Drop him right there and save a few innocent lives!"

Andy - read the rest of the post - you will as likely waste a few innocent lives with your missed efforts as save them with your Clint Eastwood approach.

[AndyKubicki]

Max, can I present a very hypothetical situation? You found a time machine and somehow ended up in 1941 with a gun in your hand facing Herr Hitler. There is an innocent youngter near him and you have only a limited time to get your shots in (should you even decide to shoot). Assuming no one would even want to be in this situation, what would you do? Or better, what do you believe would be the moral thing to do, assuming this is your only chance?

BTW, you can replace Hitler with Stalin if you wish.

[Audio Flynn]

May I suggest you team up with Jesse the Body Ventura for 2008.

He was elected; a few people found fault with the other options!

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"...fuedal system gives them very low productivity..."

I don't really understand this comment.

Dean study Socialism; colective demeans indidual acheivement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- For the most part white people kill white people and black people kill black people.

Total murders for each race is about the same.

Is this sad?

The murder rate is greatly different.

The rate among whites is on par with that of Western Europe.

I agree!

GB and Japan are anomalies.

Sadly depressed societies...

I am not a flamer just a thought promoter; I prefer to be INCORRECT.

[maxg]

Nice question Andy - if slightly insane...

Problem is that if I shot Hitler in 1941 (why 1941 - why not 1933 when he first came to power?) time would change.

There is a strong possibility that this change would result in my parents never meeting - in which case I am never born and there is no-one to shoot Hitler....

That is not the point you are making of course but here is another approach. Suppose Hitler had been killed off in 1941 do you really think anything would have changed? We could play a game called nominate the henchman where we try to guess which of the sicko fanatics he surrounded himself with would take over....

It dont work - even with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight!!

[gunman45]

A couple of thoughts,

One thing I have always found interesting is that the murder rate in the US includes justifiable homicide to include deaths committed during a crime by law enforcement.

Some argue that the availability of firearms in the US results in our high suicide rate yet Japan, a country which does not allow private firearms ownership has 4 times the suicide rate as the US.

London has a higher murder by firearms rate than any city in the US even though private ownership of firearms was banned in 1998. Australias murder and aggravated assault rate jumped substantially when firearms were banned.

Arent you more likely to be mowed down by said lunatics 3 ton SUV than stabbed by his huge knife?

Please,

Talk about obsession with inanimate objects, what is up with SUVs. They are just vehicles for #### sakes. A person hits a pedestrian in a crosswalk with a Honda Accord its a shame, a person hits a pedestrian in a crosswalk with a SUV its front page news in the NY Times and every talk show in the nation for days!

But I digress,

I have brandished a firearm twice as a civilian, one during an attempted home invasion where the police refused to respond the second time while confronting two knife wielding individuals who were attempting to steal my car in my driveway. No shots were fired and I have left the State of California and though I have had a canceled carry permit for over eight years, I find little reason to carry.

[Deang]

Max,

Like I said, the original post is a "joke". It popped up in my email and I thought it was funny. I sure didn't expect a six page thread out of it. There's been some good, sane conversation though.

The scenerio itself used to happen here all of time, specifically in the state of Florida in the context of car-jackings, that is, until they passed the Conceal Carry Bill.

[TBrennan]

Gunman---London has a higher murder rate by firearms than Chicago? Ridiculous! You better cite that.

[TBrennan]

Max----You make too much sense, you remind us that the Greeks invented rational thinking. As I said earlier I think Americans fantasize being attacked and the blazing away and being a Big Hero, very childish.

It's as though you walked around Athens constantly on your gaurd that an evil, dreadlocked Spartan hoplite was gonna jump out of the bushes and run you through with his spear and so you walked around in a panoply and armed with ash-shaft spear and bronze clad shield.

Guns are incredibly powerful emotional and political symbols here, this being a country that was won with the gun whereas, England say, was won with the sword. To many they symbolize power and manhood and to some they symbolize and embody a hope; a hope that their drab and powerless lives can somehow be empowered by owning such a weapon. And though it may sound trite the sexual symbolism and power of the gun, especially the handgun, cannot be denied.

And then to some guns are just tools, like hammers or crowbars; to be used for a job, hunting or sport, and then put away and forgotten until needed again. Such gunowners don't obsess over guns any more than carpenters obsess over hammers.

[Deang]

I love my hammer drill.

[fini]

Hey, easy there, Tom! Have I shown you my hammers? Oooohhh, smooooth face....

How about you run across Hitler's pregnant mother. Would you encourage/beg/force her to get an abortion?

I thought this thread needed another can of worms. Maybe a dash of salt, too.

[Deang]

I hate that "Hitler" thing. I mean, since it's impossible to go back.

Of course, the right answer is you wait for his mother to give birth, kidnap the child, and raise him as your own.

[hwatkins]

As a whole folks - I am proud of you. This has been, with few wrinkles, a reasonable conversation. Looking at it as a whole, there have been some very interesting (and at times quite civil) points made. I am going to try and summarize the one's that mean something to me:

1. Statistics doesn't seem to influence one way or the other. That makes this a feeling instead of a fact.

2. Being a hunter I have to agree with the comments regarding the negative generalization of hunters - for the most part they are quite sane and reliable companions.

3. Gun ownership is a right in the US and there isn't going to be anything to change that quickly, so we best continue to argue our points and, if interested, work to influence regulations.

4. Effectiveness with weapons is a discipline and requires ongoing training. Everyone needs to be sure they understand this. If you don't practice the type of situations that may arise for weapon use, your chances for a mistake increase dramatically when faced with the situation.

5. This country is far too safe to be carrying a weapon as a rule instead of in specific situations (I actually go farther and say that even the specifics don't count).

6. I would use a gun (with intent to kill) in self defense or the defense of those I care about. Knowing that, I consider both the burden of making that choice and the possibility for a mistake too emotionally costly to allow me to carry a weapon for self defense.

7. Yep - shooting is interestingly fun. Proficiency, even in a moment, is hard to build to and becomes increasingly more difficult as eyesight falters and muscles weaken (Old Farts, like me, with weapons is another interesting topic).

Lastly, a couple of things I really need to address -

1. Don't be overly proud of the American productivity, etc. The European Union (sorry MAx if you are one of those against it) is performing in an ever increasingly good way that is positioned to eclipsce our economy - the overall EU has outperformed the US in the last couple of years. Having had folks work for me across the globe it is generally wrong to group the rest of the world as lazy, nonproductive, etc. - Just flat out wrong.

2. London - a second home to me for some time - is by far a safer city than any of the top 30 cities in the US. Any statistic that shows a high per capita rate of weapons use compared to any of those 30 cities just can't be real. If it is high per capita of gun owning folks, there may be a point - but trust this - it is not high for the overall population.

3. Not owning guns is not a foundation for any argument on productivity, economy, prostitution or Tele Tubbies - There is no correlation to those issues.

And finally - Listen to Max. He lives in a society where guns are treated differently than here. His input may help us not be so centric in looking to firm our positions.

That is pretty much too much - sorry...

[hwatkins]

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On 1/6/2004 9:30:25 AM DeanG wrote:

I hate that "Hitler" thing. I mean, since it's impossible to go back.

Of course, the right answer is you wait for his mother to give birth, kidnap the child, and raise him as your own.

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Where is Neo? I need a photoshop version of Dean with his adopted son Adolph....