HornPenguin Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I'm new to the group and would first like to say hello and thanks for any responses that I recieve to my questions. I have enjoyed reading many posts here. I am looking for a new amplifier and need advise. My biggest question is should I go for tubes, say perhaps the VTL Stereo 90 or solid state like a McCormack or Bryston ST. Current system: 1984 Cornwall I CWO's - (stock, no mods) Velodyne DLS4000 Subwoofer w/built in amp - crossed over at about 50 Hz NAD 314 integrated amp - (using amp temporarily until new purchase) Audio Research SP9 MKII hybrid pre-amp - Sovtek 6922's Parasound CDP1000 CD player Cheap cables - I will replace shortly I like the sound but the system can be a little edgy on the highest notes sometimes, but not to bad overall, rather smooth if the recording is good (could be improved). I feel that there could be better dynamics, not bad but room to get better. The system could use a bit more bass slam. Bass dynamics are important to me. I listen to mainly classic rock, acoustic guitar, really old country and maybe a little bit of orchestra. I do not have the ability to listen to a lot of equipment and will be purchasing used most likely through Audiogon and will very likely not audition the amp I choose. I have read alot of posts regarding the tube/ss question and would like to hear some of your valued responses with my system/needs in mind. Would I lose bass dynamics by going to a lower priced tube amp? Will some of the upper end sizzle disappear? Would a lower powered tube amp be a good choice for rock music played loud? I would love to bi-amp the tube up top and ss on the bottom with an active cross over if there is a way to do this with my Cornwall's. Any suggestions, or do I need to stick with a singular amp? Thanks !!! Brad (aka Horn Penguin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Hi Brad, You better go with tubes. If you do decide otherwise, choose the McCormack over the Bryston. Another reason for the edginess is that ole SP9 and the 6922 Sovtek. I would try to replace it with a more mellow sounding Mullard ECC88 or E88CC. The Sovtek has great resolution but can sound thin in most occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I read your post twice and both times I was thinking that you might be someone who would appreciate Khorns. I think you'll like tube power. One thing that's nice about tube amps right now is that they are very hot on the market, so even if you don't like what you buy, you can always sell it and get your money back out. If the tube amp is newer or rebuilt, there should be no sacrifice of high end sizzle. That was a concern of mine too when I first went to tubes. I figure I can't hear much above 10 or 12K right now anyway. What blew me away with tube power was the beautiful midrange that they produce. I think you'll notice a big difference in how smooth a sound you'll get with tubes. Playing loud is a relative thing. What's loud to some people is not to others. It also depends on the size of the room the system is in. I can produce fair volume ( hard to talk over face to face)levels in a 12 x 14 room with a small 20 watt tube amp and Cornwalls. I can produce the same volume with a much larger soundstage, bigger and smoother midrange, in a 16 x 22 room with a 3 watt tube amp and Khorns. My advice to you is the same as has been said on this forum hundreds of times, try different amps yourself to see what you like. It's almost impossible for someone else to decide for you. Maybe try an older rebuilt integrated tube amp, or a newer used tube amp. Either of these will be relatively inexpensive and easy to sell if you don't like them. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Biamping Cornwalls would require modifying the crossover. It's not necessary. Since you are looking for a "sound" and are nearly there, you will have to listen to everything in your system. I'd suggest you try a Parasound HCA-750A or HCA-1000A. The 1000A runs in Class A up to 1.65 watts. Another alternative is B&K's St series. The old ST140 was supposed to be a really nice amp. The new ST55.2 and ST125.2 look good. The 55 watt ST55.2 has specs that look like it might have some tube characteristics and the 125s have MOSFET outputs. For a tube amp, the 6550 tubes are said to give good bass slam something like SS. I've never heard one and I'm not a tube fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkBK Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 As I sit here reading your post I am listening to my '79 Cornwalls with all tube McIntosh C22 preamp and MC4240 poweramp and the sound is simply amazing! The more I listen the more I appreciate this combination. Both pieces have been "blueprinted" (thanks for the term Craig!)with metal film resistors, Poly caps, new electrolytics. In the power supply, I had to choose NOS parts and always errored on the side of too much capacitance when I could not locate EXACT values. From old Steely Dan to Orchestral (Telarc) to classical guitar (Julian Bream)the sound is simply stunning. Amazing imaging, stage depth and dynamics - the beauty of high efficiency horns with tubes - always the best combination. Go for the tube gear - there is an awful lot of tube gear being made and lots of great choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I do agree with Guy that part of the problem is the SP-9, even though the MkII is better than the first version. I had this preamp in another system for awhile and really thought it tended to do some of the things you are complaining about. I actually thought it was a step down in musicality from the SP-8 although the SP-8 was not as transparent in the HI-FI sense. The SP-9 sounded more artificial to me. It did have the ability to please on a short term but this pre does not strike me as a great match for horns. Better tube choice will help but not sure if that will solve everything. I actually think the Bryston 4B-ST is a very nice SS amp with a very open midband. I actually preferred the 4B-ST to the McCormack DNA 1, but both are good solid state amps and can be nice in a good setup. I did like the little DNA .5 as well, almost more than the 1. The Deluxe version of either is a step up, however. Ultimately, I think these solid state choices, though excellent with buttoned down, quality sound, do leave a bit to be desired in the musicality department. What might seem like a meaningless word really comes home after a few months when the first impression high starts to wear off. This is where a quality tube amp can shine as even the better solid state does not have the richness and sense of life. These descriptives might seem a bit abstract but damn if it doesnt ring true. Will you take a sacrifice with less so-called "slam" going tubes? Well, I really dont think so. While the bass will not have the wall-to-floor-joint right angle impact, it really ultimately plays out as more realistic, more like the REAL thing, especially with acoustic bass. Going the Audiogon route is a great money saver. IF you put as much into your tube amp selection as going with a used McCormack DNA 1 or Bryston 4B-ST, you will wind up with a nice set of options. I will say that Audiogon is currently not lit up with compelling options although a few are there. I would hold tight and see what comes up. I have heard some good solid state but have never been a big fan of solid state on Cornwalls. I have liked it short term but never in the long run. I owned several B&K amps over the years with their top of the line B&K M200 Sonata Monoblocks for over 10 years. To give you an idea, I thought my 40 yr old EICO was ultimately more involving musically. I personally think tubes are the way to go via vintage Klipsch but you have others that have been very happy with solid state. I have found tubes something that brings the best out of cornwalls with the pre being equally important in the stream. As for SS on bottom and tubes on top, I think it's unnecessary complication really. And I still say that well done tube bottom end sounds more realistic to me. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornPenguin Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Greg - I would love to pick up some Khorns, but that is entirely out of the question. I don't have room corners to put them it! My listening room (living room) is about 15x22 or so with a sloping ceiling from 9 to 15 feet, lots of open doors to other rooms and no corners in sight. And I do like my Cornwalls. So, I'll replace the amp, buy some cables and perform some tweeks here and there. Loud to me is well above the level of converstion, I like to feel the bass. Thunderous dynamics. So with the large room, and the love of bass, would the tube still cut it. Yes I love quieter music also with warmth and air and a nice stage. How about bi-amping tube up top, ss on the bottom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Nice post Kelly. John, if you would -- could you elaborate a little on what it is about tube amps you don't care for? I've always found this interesting about you. As far as the original question goes, I need to come in behind Guy and tell you to dump those Sovtek 6922s. It's a horrible sounding tube. Mullard or Amperex would make a significant improvement. Also, make sure you don't substitute 6DJ8s for the 6922s in that ARC. The next thing you need to do is dump the cheap cables. Go low capacitance, and get some Kimber PBJs or Cardas 300Bs. Either would work well with the Corns, and not break the bank. For Rock-n-Roll at semi-live to live levels, you will need 30 to 60 tube watts, or 100 to 150 solid state watts. To get the tight, controlled bass you like for your music -- you should lean towards something using either the KT-88 or 6550, and at least a damping factor of 20. The best value gear that fits this criteria is a used set of Quicksilver monoblocks. Give us a day or two -- we all love shopping for other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 You could biamp with an active crossover, but to do it right would be very expensive. I would go for a good set of tube monoblocks. Kelly is right, the bass from a good tube amp really loads a room up. Solid state is so tight and fast the notes are over before you've had a chance to enjoy them. How much do you want to spend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texas42 Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Having been a solid state guy my whole audio life (past 25 years), I'll offer my opinion... GO WITH TUBES! I fought it for years, but have to admit (ESPECIALLY with horns) there is no better synergistic match. My Cornwalls sound immeasurably better since I replaced my Acurus A200 with a remodded Scott 299B and Cayin TA-30 tube integrated amp. I imagine an vintage Eico or Fisher would have similar results. Try to find another forum member close by with tubes and check it out for yourself. There is no substitute for hearing it for yourself. Best of luck... Regards, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 "Give us a day or two -- we all love shopping for other people." Dean, you're too much!LMAO Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 If you plan to look for some cables, try to audition any of VanDenHul carbon or hybrid cables (i.e The First, Second, First Ultimate and Integration Hybrid) these will remove most of that edgy sound and will add more air and depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornPenguin Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Thanks everyone for the excellent insight and ideas. I think that I will very likely go tubes. Now, I may be wrong but I have the impression that I need to spend more for a quality tube amp than SS. I was wanting to keep the cost below a thousand bucks if possible, perhaps I would go a couple of hundred more if the right amp presented itself. Anyone try VTL products? Extra eyes in the search would be very welcome. I'm not in a hurry, but am ready to buy as soon as I see something that I feel comfortable with. I want to make a good decision so that I don't need to upgrade soon down the road. I will also be on the lookout for better tubes for the ARC SP9MKII, but will need to resolve the amp purchase first. - Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Take a look at these http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1078451889&class&3&4& Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 and these http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1078269975&class&3&4& Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Those Quicksilvers are nice, too bad they're not in nicer shape. I would probably go for these instead. http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1078276518 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Thanks Dean. Two interesting amp recs from Guy. While some feel the factory mod making the 8417 QS so they can play EL-34 a negative, I bet these amps sound very nice and have room within to do whatever you please down the line. Mike Sanders is very helpful and QS is a company that lies low in the media but is well respected. While their amps dont jump out at you they all have good qualities. They are a good stepping stone while many land there and dont bother jumping back into the gerbil wheel.. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul cbc Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 A little bit of both? http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?ampstube&1078610595&class&3&4& Looks to be in good condition and the sellers feedback looks good. Let us know whatever you decide paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Hybrid integrated. Hmmm. Speaking from hard lesson learned -- go for monoblocks. I just noticed those VTLs are the Anniversary Editions. I bet those are nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 ---------------- On 1/7/2004 12:22:29 AM DeanG wrote: Hybrid integrated. Hmmm. Speaking from hard lesson learned -- go for monoblocks. I just noticed those VTLs are the Anniversary Editions. I bet those are nice.---------------- Don't sell the QUADs......................... . It's too soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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