BackBurner Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 Hey tunes !!! I'm not here to insite a flame war , there are guys here that know their gear and thats a good a reason as any to hang out. I never meant to imply one thing is better then another , but just mentioned that there is stuff out there that could float your boat like you would never believe if you ever got the chance to listen to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmslaw Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 William: Yes, arguably there are "better" speakers than the Klipschorn. I, personally, have owned speakers which retailed for $90,000. and have heard MANY of the so-called statement systems out there. The bottom-line is that for 10 times the money, one only gets a slight increase in performance over the Khorns, typically at the extremes. For $7500 retail, they are an unbelievable speaker, and I prefer them to virtually every megabuck speaker I have heard. It isn't a matter of "blinders", it's a matter of preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arj Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Audio is such a personal thing..and opinions vary so much, so much more for speakers...for eg to me..IF I had that kind of money, 3 speakers which have Blown me away, though quite different to each other are JM labs Alto Utopia Be Eggleston works Andra Avant Garde Duo I would want them in that order For the time being am very happy with And enjoying my Klipsch ref's which I bought after more than 2 months of Audition and research to get My Kinda' Sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Best in the world is probably a bit of a stretch - and fairly needless. From what I can see of the prices KHorns go for in the US they are almost certainly the best that can be had for the money (especially used) - but THE best? At the last high end show in Athens - separated from the rest of the show in an enormous room with some serious SS gear was a pair of JMLab Utopias (around $70,000 I think). The only thing that separated that setup from a live performance according to my ears was the absence of the performers. Would a pair of KHorns have performed as well or better - I dont know - it would certainly have needed very different equipment driving it. How about the really big Maggies, the Quad 989's, the B&W 801, Egglestons, Wilsons, Avantegards....there are many really high end speakers out there - and there is probably no definitive best - except according the ears of an individual listener, in a given environment with a given setup. Just my 0.02.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 9:58:31 PM BackBurner wrote: While the klipschorn is the flagship and foundation of the klipsch name , sadly i'll have to be the lone soul to disagree. Flame me all you want " but " at the price point " yes " the klipschorn is a fantastic deal a great speaker , but thats all . You guys can afford klipschorns, thats what makes them so great along with driving them with micro watts of power. If your back pocket was stuffed with bills you'd soon find out theres a whole other hi-fi world out there, none of you venture there because it's simply out of reach. I worked along side men who spent more money on lunch then most of us have invested in our kits. But i was just that " a worker " not a player . I own klipschorns and love them to death , because i can afford them but if i had an unlimited line of cash the klipshorns would find there way into my garage in a big hurry. My last boss had a pair of wilson audio's in his office that cost more than my house , they sounded so good i can't even begin to describe it. Sorry to burst your bubble but if you walk around with blinders on long enough your going to bump into something that hurts. It's a nice gesture to pat each other on the backs once and awhile but don't play the fool along the way. PS : This is not a flame thread , i'm speaking from 15 years as a roady and recording studio set up man . I'm by no means an expert , but i've listened to just about every speaker built on this contenent and just giving an opinion on whats appealing to my ears, others may disagree and thats ok. Audio is a very personal experiance that has a lot to do with taste. No harm intended, signed : william casey ---------------- What was that famous word that Paul W. Klipsch used to use to describe this type of banter? Oh yeah ... "Bullsh*t" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Ctiger2, What is it that you disagree with? I agree completely with his post. Klipschorns are great speakers, and for the price I've not heard anything I'd rather have. However, for a lot more money, there are speakers that I like better. The Avantgarde Trios with the Avantgarde horn subs, which cost something like 6 or 7 times as much as the Khorns, would be my choice if I could afford them. I listened to them at the Avantgarde showroom in NYC and thought they sounded wonderful. I also thought the new JMLab Be series (heard them at Sound by Singer) sounded wonderful, though in a different way. These, though, are about 10 times the cost of the Khorns (if you want full bass extension). If my Internet company had IPO'd instead of tanking, and I'd walked away with a few million dollars, I wouldn't have hesitated to spend a few hundred thou on a cool stereo. Probably something like a DCS front end, Halcro preamp and amps, and either Wilson MAXX or X-1, JMLab, Eggleston or Dynaudio speakers. Klipsch simply doesn't compete in that market - by choice. That's not a slam against Klipsch any more than saying Pontiac doesn't make a car that competes in the same market as Bentley is a slam against Pontiac. It's just not what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I wonder how good a set of customized $90,000 Khorns would sound... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrench_peddler Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Dave, one correct answer would be, less than $83,000 better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Probably something like a DCS front end, Halcro preamp and amps, and either Wilson MAXX or X-1, JMLab, Eggleston or Dynaudio speakers. Klipsch simply doesn't compete in that market - by choice. That's not a slam against Klipsch any more than saying Pontiac doesn't make a car that competes in the same market as Bentley is a slam against Pontiac. It's just not what they do. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I agree. Price point is the case. Mine top shelf components would be: DCS CD player Maxed out VPI TT with some $ 2000 cart (Benz maybe) KRELL Wilson speaker or JM Lab Utopia +++++++++++++++ I would hope I had the sense, if I had that much money, to start a "Meals on Wheels" program for the elderly and destitute single moms; before I spent $ 200,000 on audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBusa Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 For the money USED khorns ($1000-$2500) have got to be in the top 3 "best used speaker bargains" availible. I paid $1200 for my 1980 walnut pair. I doubt I'd be able to find any speakers in this price range that come close to the sound the Khorns can produce. Sure, there are better speakers out there but I doubt there's better sounding speakers for the same money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Speakers are the simplest of machines with no basic improvements made since the 1930s or perhaps Peter Walker in 1957. That a pair of "high-end" speakers with a total of 8 moving parts should cost more than a high-performence automobile is insane. Or cost more than ANY auto for that matter. Or a crate engine. People are getting jammed. Many audiophiles have no clue about how machines really work and actually think throwing money at speakers gets them better ones; this is one of the reasons I hold conventional audiophiles of the Absolute Sound and Stereophile school in contempt. I can see, in mechanical terms, why some horns could be better than Klipsch. But no direct-radiator will be better, not to me. In any case one need not spend big money to make a good direct-radiator, in fact they're much cheaper to do than horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 3:41:13 PM jmslaw wrote: I acquired a pair of Phillips 5ar4 tubes which I had not yet used. I replaced the Krell amp and VOILA....... THE KHORNS SOUNDED LIKE DIFFERENT SPEAKERS!!!!! Apparently, during my initial pairing with the Khorns, the Cardinals had a bad tube which affected their performance. All of the sudden, the bass firmed up and gained a level of harmonic rightness I have not heard before on these speakers. EVERYTHING just jelled! I have spent the past week going through all my reference discs and have come to the following conclusion: The Klipschorns are world-class speakers under the right circumstances. The Wavelength Cardinals transformed my Khorns into a crystal-clear window into the music. ---------------- If you think that made your day, you should really hear them in a properly sized & acoustically tuned room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Back, I pretty much could buy anything I want...I make an obscene salary and have secondary sources of income...my limits are only governed by my feelings as to what is reasonable to spend on components and what sounds good to me, with my music, in my room. I have settled on klipschorns and a PP DHT amp because I like how they sound. I have auditioned MANY other speakers and besides a pair of Maggie 20s which blew me away in a demo with big krell amps I have not yet heard anything that made me want to change. big bucks does not always translate into better sound. Those big buck speakers mentioned, I am sure, sound great and produce sound that pleases a wide variety of people. my klipshorns produce music that pleases me. with careful selection one can put together a system for $5-10,000 (maybe even $2,500 if you go used) that will thrill even the most picky listener, one may not gain anything by spending more. YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmslaw Posted March 16, 2004 Author Share Posted March 16, 2004 Tony: My point exactly. I have owned several speaker systems which cost WAY more than my Khorns. I sold all of those in favor of the Khorns. It isn't a matter of being able to spend more; rather it is about not NEEDING to spend more. My system has never provided so much enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/16/2004 9:09:14 AM BigBusa wrote: For the money USED khorns ($1000-$2500) have got to be in the top 3 "best used speaker bargains" availible. I paid $1200 for my 1980 walnut pair. I doubt I'd be able to find any speakers in this price range that come close to the sound the Khorns can produce. Sure, there are better speakers out there but I doubt there's better sounding speakers for the same money. ---------------- Yep, I gave 1300 for my '73 walnut khorns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 4:40:46 PM D-MAN wrote: It also sounds to me like you are not getting the bass output from the Khorns that the design is capable of producing. Frankly, I have never heard better bass than I did from a friends Khorn setup; I can't seem to achieve that in my listening space either, but I know that it can be done but unfortunately it is a room-dimension issue, not easily resolved... ---------------- D-Man...sort of correct. The room size & dimension issue primarily affects the 'smoothness' of the low-end response. The 'apparent' lack of bass output is usually related to a standing wave problem. Klipshorns, because of their corner design, are capable of exciting any & all room modes (which can be a good thing in a properly sized & proportioned room) but often results in standing waves. And because of the corner design, these standing waves (increased pressure zones) usually pile up in the room corners. The result, more often than not, is the opposite effect in the middle of the room. A pressure null, or cancellation occurs. Bass trapping in the vertical corners (& secondarily in the horizontal corners) can make big improvements in bass extension, loudness, definition & detail. Keep in mind that its also quite difficult to do much bass trapping below 70Hz or so. The bass traps need to be quite large (at least 1/4 of the wavelength). But also be aware that bass traps do not necessarily have to be 'in-the-room'. They can be built into the ceiling/attic spaces, in & behind walls, or even in a deep walk-in closet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 ---------------- On 3/15/2004 9:58:31 PM BackBurner wrote: While the klipschorn is the flagship and foundation of the klipsch name , sadly i'll have to be the lone soul to disagree. If your back pocket was stuffed with bills you'd soon find out theres a whole other hi-fi world out there, none of you venture there because it's simply out of reach. My last boss had a pair of wilson audio's in his office that cost more than my house , they sounded so good i can't even begin to describe it. No harm intended, signed : william casey ---------------- William Casey...............HERE COMES YOUR FLAME. KLIPSCH....BAN ME IF YOU LIKE. William, my poor misguided "friend". You are dumber than a bag of $hit on a ceiling fan! That "whole other hi-fi world out there" is also full of $hit. It is for the ignorant. For the fools who think that higher price always reflects higher quality or performance. Yes, there's an old saying "you get what you pay for". But that works both ways. At some point, spending "too much' for less, is just about one's own ego. I recently discovered that the same thing is happening in the bicycle industry too, where dummies are paying big bucks for bikes with titianium frames. Titianum costs moocho bucks nowadays. I had a titianium frame bike many years ago when it's use was still 'innovative' but cost competitive. It was by far the worst "high-end" (ie: professional road racing) bike I ever had. The damn frame flexed so much most of your energy was lost pushing the frame back & forth instead of pushing the bike forward. Riding 30 miles felt like 100! And as far as the Wilson Audio CRAP goes (and it is crap....its just a 'kit-bashed' speaker system), if ANYONE cares to drag a pair over to my place for comparision, you're more than welcome to make arrangements with me. I've heard those 'contraptions' (on more than one occassion) and they are not in the same league with what I'm listening to. Get life dude....or some new ears, or at least get a box of Q-tips! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Well, I cannot afford those expensive speakers mentioned above, BUT... a few years ago (pre-Klipsch days for me) I had the chance to listen to a Wilson Audio Puppy/all Krell setup at a local dealer. I had read about those speakers and expected some musical relevation. I took along some CDs I knew really well...and came home rather disappointed. Yes, the bass drum made more impact than at home, but musically speaking the whole setup left me totally unmoved. I don't think this was because I wanted my own gear to be better, on the contrary, I was hoping for something extroadinary...and it just didn't happen. Something similar happened when I auditioned the B&W 801 with McIntosh ss amps....again no life. The list could continue with Mark Levinson or Accuphase gear and Avalon speakers, my previous Quads etc.... No, even if those experiences can only be personal, the Klipsch Heritage sound is taking me much closer to the musical event. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 Wolfram---Don't expect to hear anything unusually good from WATTs, the drivers are right out of the Parts Express and Madisound catalogs. Good? Sure, why not. A revelation? No, why should it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 I always remember Peter Aczel's (yes, I know, but still an astute man) comments from a few years back re: Wilson and his music machines----I paraphrase when I say Aczel referred to Wilson as an excellent recording engineer, a fine gentleman basically and the KING of the overpriced "high" end speaker racket!! The drivers are well implemented but there is nothing extraordinary about them......Say, does anyone here ever go to the Madisound board where the guys are into rolling their own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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