K-horns with built-in False Walls?

[Ki Choi]

In an effort to have five K-horns for multichannel music setup, I am faced with a task of building at least four False Walls for them.

Has anyone tried to modify the published False Wall plan and some how integrated them into the K-horns - basically enclosing the back bass openning with may be with 2 x 1" MDF boards and have it cover about 36" (instead of 48" specified) for better WAF?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Ki

[JohnA]

You are describing the Klipsch TSCM, a theater bass horn.

[jdm56]

I have not tried what you mention, but I see no reason an artificial corner made of 3/4" or 1" mdf would not do a decent job of providing the final flare of the bass horns. It would be heavy enough, and as long as the corners where the two sheets meet are secure, with no leaks, then I think the only thing to worry about is making sure contact between the mdf and the speaker is continuous and that there are no gaps. The sheets could be joined with L-brackets where the corner is formed, and in fact could be fastened to the back of the speaker the same way.

[Ki Choi]

Thanks,

Is there a photo of the TSCM some where? I tried Klipsch Website but couldn't find one.

Ki

[sheltie dave]

Ki, Jim Cornell in Colorado has one, and posted in the last two months in 2 channel about getting it, complete with photos. He could provide you with dimensions and info. Hope the weather is nice in Seattle and the coffee is hot

[HornEd]

I believe there is a sound reason that PWK didn't finish off the backs of the original Klipschorn with a 1" board and it probably had to do with creating external (rather than internal) bracing to stiffen the enclosure.

The 48" wall space issue, as I recall, is traceable to PWK's calculations. Tony Reed could probably fill us in better on that one... cutting off a foot of your prized (audio) extension is not my idea of a good time. Remember, the wall represents a calculated extension of the folded horn... and, as such, is an integral dynamic of the Klipschorn experience. Perhaps some aesthetic treatment of the false wall can blend or contrast with the decor in a positive WAF way?

Over the years, many posts have dealt with building false corners... and one of the primary advantages IMHO is the ability to stiffen the false corner better than the average corner wall is built in a house using conventional building techniques. I think my hero Q-man has spoken to that issue on more than one occasion.

Additionally, the recent thread about the little blocks that were built into the Khorn throats for a couple of years illustrates how a little interior deformation affects a sizeable amount of audio characteristics.

PWK used false walls in his own home... and while part of that may have been a WAF issue... there is no doubt in my mind that structural integrity of a building's corner would also play a part in PWK's mind. In my own experience, the more structurally sound the corner... the better sound that came out of the Khorn! =HornEd

[Ki Choi]

Thanks guys.

I found the picture of TSCM... and thought... it's massive...with not much better WAF than the 48" false wall, it seems.

Also, apologies to all if I am revisiting an old subject that was well covered.

HornEd's comment makes lot of sense. However, the 48" long false walls for Front Left, Center and Right would be too much as I had planned to follow the ITU guide lines on placement of the front speakers.

Other option is to use the long wall and relatively better room corners to place front L and R without the use of the false corner. But, Khorn for center would need to be replaced with a Belle and the distance from my listening position to Center would be much shorter than fron L and R. I would imagine there will be some sacrifice in replacing Khorn center with a Belle...

[3dzapper]

Ki Choi,

The long wall front sounds like a better idea on it's own merit, even without the false corner issue.

A Lascala would be a better timbre match for the center using the same drivers,horns and x-over networks but, the WAF is lower. Belles use the same drivers and tweeter but the squaker and x-over is slightly different.

Life is a bunch of compromises to keep the little woman happy.

I can't imagine life with only four Klipschorns and a lowley Belle Klipsch. You poor man.

Rick

[D-MAN]

I think that you would be fine if you stop at the end of the horn mouth (i.e. the end of the cabinet), like the JBL Hartsfield which has a fully enclosed horn also, you will not hurt anything and you will have a nicer looking package...

It is an interesting note that of all of the famous corner horns of the past, Klipsch is the only one that did not fully enclose the horn all the way.

DM

[HornEd]

And the Klipschorn is the only one to survive since 1948... maybe there is something to it!

As you may know, the LaScala was designed by PWK as a center for his Klipschorns. When he brought it home, his wife Belle found it as less than acceptable for her home. PWK revamped the LaScala design for more female appeal... named his new design the "Belle Klipsch"... and suddenly he was cranking out classical tunes in his version of Bell Labs three-channel stereo.

As someone who has six Klipschorns and four Belles, let me say that a Belle in the middle is better than a Bose in the Nose... back achoo! -HornEd

[HDBRbuilder]

Actually, HornEd, the LaScala is the ONLY one of the now so-called Heritage line that WASN'T initially designed as a supplementary(read Center channel) speaker to K-horns. Instead, it was designed for stage work...specifically for a political campaign, where it was used on a flatbead trailer as a gubernatoral campaigner (Winthrop Rockefeller) stumped the state of Arkansas at outdoor Bar-B-Ques and such. The campaigner had a deep and boomy speaking voice and he wanted a pair of speakers that would provide the accuracy for his voice that his Klipschorns at home provided. Actually, the fact he used these early LaScalas FOR that campaign led to quite a number of orders being placed for them as they were heard by others, including local musicians around the state. Remember, back in those days, it was common for campaigners to use local bands (many of which were bluegrass bands in those days) for entertainment at those Bar-B-Ques. So, PWK continued with research and development on the LaScala and put them into production. PWK noted that when he went to the 15" driver in the bass bin (very early on in the R&D), with the inclusion of the same mid-horn as the K-horn, that the LaScala made a better sonic match for a center channel between Klipschorns than either the Heresy OR the Cornwall did, so he took one home for that use. His first wife, Belle, was not exactly happy about the appearance of plain plywood cabinetry in the middle of her living room, so PWK embarked on a mission to beautify the appearance so that it better matched his flanking walnut Klipschorns, and named the final product after Belle.

One important thing is that although the Belle Klipsch was originally designed to be a "pretty" LaScala, PWK actually preferred the LaScala as a center channel, because he had compromised the Belle Klipsch somewhat by making the cabinet shallower in depth so that it was more aesthetically pleasing, which forced him to use a different mid-horn lens than the Klipschorn uses....somewhat ever-so-slightly denigrating the performance of the Belle Klipsch as opposed to the LaScala for center channel use. There was a reason for this, though. The Belle Klipsch speaker has a wider basshorn, but is also shallower in depth...the bends in it are more-or-less the sonic equivalent to the LaScala, but there is still a bit of difference. With the LaScala's greater cabinet depth, it tended to "stick out" into the room more than the Belle did, which drew attention to it, making it less aesthetically pleasing in a living room environment...BUT it ALSO made the LaScala more pronounced in its performance...more "in your face", one might say...which took away from the flanking K-horns performance somewhat. Keep in mind that PWK's living room was long and relatively narrow, so that more "in your face" of the LaScala as compared to the Belle Klipsch was a bad thing in that particular room...requiring discrete adjustments in center channel volume to make up for it. Therefore, for his own home, PWK's Belle Klipsch was a more desirable alternative. One thing many forum members don't realize is that PWK's home was NOT designed around his speakers...as many forum members tend to do for their own homes. PWK's home was not even designed BY PWK...or FOR him...it was not new when he bought it...he often called it his "new" second-hand home.

One thing that I have noticed is the propensity for many forum members to use only the term "Belle" when referring to this speaker, which is incorrect. The name of the speaker is BELLE KLIPSCH. I would like to make that clear to many who may be unaware of that. The nickname used at the plant was simply "BK". Plant workers used nicknames for many of the speakers..."K-horn", "Corn" or "Cornhole"(referring to its ports), and "Scalywag" come to mind. It is the only speaker in the line that actually bore the last name of its inventor, as it is spelled. The Klipschorn was a moniker that INCLUDED his name, but was what OTHERS in the audio world began calling it very early on...PWK thought it was "catchy", so he adopted it for that speaker's name.

When one considers that the LaScala made its INITIAL debut in its original form around 1963-64? (for the 1964 gubernatorial campaign, if I remember correctly, but it may have been as late as 1965-1966), and it was almost a full decade afterwards that the Belle Klipsch speaker actually went into production, it makes one wonder why it took so long for it to happen to begin with! I am sure that Belle was ready for it at home long before then! I believe that the original Belle Klipsch speaker was taken home by PWK around 1968-69, though. It was a couple of years later...around 1970-71...that the Belle Klipsch actually officially joined the production line-up. Some of out forum members may note that the aesthetic cabinet design of the BK was patented, although the SPEAKER design in itself never was.

The LaScala is a relatively quick build...with good builders being able to complete 3-5 per day when I worked there...whereas the Belle Klipsch, although not a complicated build, was time consuming...taking about one-two days to build each one. This is due to the nature of its build, which requires many pre-drilled glue blocks, lots of pilot holes for screws, and lots of screws to assemble it up. It also requires the use of a number of marking jigs for alignment of parts and such. The LaScala is a faster build because it is not considered fine furniture...just a utilitarian cabinet with mostly glue, staples, and nails involved. Back when I worked there, no "screw guns" were used on BK's, just "yankee" drivers and regular hand screwdrivers...this was due to the poplar lumber-core veneered panels used in MOST of its construction....in which the torque used to tighten screws was best left to the determination of the builder's "feel", as opposed to the pre-set torque used on pneumatic screw-guns.

[BEC]

HDBRbuilder,

I have a pair of 1968 LaScalas with the woofer access under the squawker. When did the change to the access from the bottom occur? Very good change, I might add.

Bob

[HDBRbuilder]

Bob,

I am not sure when that change occurred...but it had occurred prior to my being hired in 1976. It seems that they would have made that change earlier than they did...but it was also a while before they rotated the bass bin 90 degrees from its original orientation, too! Sometimes common sense moves take time. I would imagine that it wasn't very long after yours were made that they changed the access door to the bottom, though, since folks were already starting to blow woofers by overdriving them by then...so the easier access for woofer swap-outs made sense from a warranty point of view.

BTW...I currently have two mis-matched tweeters for my LaScalas...one a K77, the other a K77M...the K77m is not functioning, so I may have to have you give it a look see for me...I do ok with woodworking, but am no genious at fixing electronics. I imagine all it needs is a new diaphragm though. Actually, I would love to have the tweeters match...my woofers I found in it were not K33's, but I have K33's in them now. What were in them were a pair of Peavey black widows when I got them...not MY choice for woofers for these. The K33's that I put into them were never marked K33, since they were pre-production testing models sent to Klipsch by Eminence many years ago....the ones Klipsch tested and accepted.

[BEC]

HDBRbuilder,

Be glad to fix it up for you or talk you through it by email if you want to try.

contact me thru email

bobcrites@centurytel.net

[HDBRbuilder]

Bob, just email me your phone number and I will give you a call...after all I am only an hour or so away from you up here in Ft Smith! My email is jahren60@aol.com

[Jim Cornell]

Yep

This is a monster 280Lbs for 1 setup. I carried it in the house alone causing a broken finger.

When i hit buy it now on E-bay, it didnt seem to much wider, than the Klipschorn. I looked at the MCM bass bin, i guess it made this look not as wide, but ill tell ya, this is a huge speaker.

The top section was destroyed i restored it, this pic is before i applied wood work to it for a better WAF.

Now you could enclose the original Klipschorn, and still set the Klipschorn top section on it, only thing is the bass bin would be a lot wider.

Regards Jim

[Ki Choi]

Jim:

Thanks for the photo of your TSCM. It's big... Since the K-horns weigh 167 lbs, the added enclosure should be around 83 lbs. I know the full blown false corner weighes around 100 lbs, so there's no huge difference.

Judging from previous posts from the experts, I am rethinking about building four false corners for its structural/sonic advantages. Any maybe I can make them with the triangle bottom that can be easily disassembled in three major pieces.

BTW, I have had several experiences in shipping the K-horns across the country recently... Let me know if anyone is interested in the subject.

Ki

[IndyKlipschFan]

If you copy paste and enlarge my pic above my name you will see my Family Room Custom HT. I built one false wall 32" out on the right. to match the 26 inch HT cabinet in style and hide the K horn from the rest of the kitchen /breakfast nook area.

I will say it is not perfect in length,(Really more my design and my wife went with it.) it does match the cabinet behind it, and it is a 100% home run. We sealed the wall to the drywall and I would say 90% + of the bass stays within the room. 36" would have been great 40-42" I have often heard is the ultimate side length to capture the full feel and force of the low end.

So 32-36" would be fine, I guess for 90% + is what I am trying to say if your in a pinch and need to see at what point is the minimum I need and still get that BIG klipsch sound. This assuming the other corner is longer and allows the full bass extension to be heard and felt. (I am sure others will dissagree but again my use, my opinion.) K Horns are incredible speakers. I added the Cornwall II (older vertical on it's side now horizontal) for the center speaker under the HDTV and LOVE it for dialog and movie ceter action.)

Hope this helps. My 2 cents.

[Ki Choi]

Indy:

Very nice looking set up.

Your design for false wall is very thin. It looks to be about 1" thick and I guess it was rigid enough to capture 90% of its bass capability...

Inspired by your picture and the series of good prior posts, I perspired to move the 2002 model k-horns against the long wall. The left K-horn is placed in a relatively solid corner made up of a long front wall and a 40" wall section and the tail boards with factory seal. The right speaker was place in a corner with two window molding that interfered about 10% of the bass openning at the tops and the K-horn was be placed about 1/2" away from the walls on both sides. So pretty good seal on Right and no seals on Left... The speakers are 17' a part from center to center, and I would sit 17' feet away from each speaker making a perfect triangle. Even with less than perfect placement, I felt and got the best bass performance I have ever had in that room from many other speakers including having added two powered subs in the past. My seating position was only about two feet away from a set of French doors to my back. So there must have been some room gain by being near the outer boundary of the room.

I can only dream what it would be like when I can follow the full recommendations from the experts in proper placement for five K-horns...

Ki

[edster00]

Ki,

I made my false corners by the 'Dope from Hope' papers but I didnt make them as long or as tall as described in the publication. I made them shorter (44") because my room isn't wide enough for full length ones, mine go as far as the front edge of the speaker. I also only made them tall enough to cover the bass bin so I could easily show off the horns to visitors and/or swap out speaker cables etc.

BTW, the false corners are not 'built in' to the K-horns, but I did put in a plywood floor that is not mentioned in the 'DFH' article.