Daddy Dee Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dean, When you mention, not knowing whether the improvement is due to the Auricaps or the conditioning, I'm wondering if I've got the correct understanding of conditioning. I'd been thinking that conditioning was simply a way to accelerate break in time. Am I understanding that it can also change the characteristic sound of a particular cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Daddy Dee I know you asked Dean, but I thought I'd throw in my experience. In the case of the Hovlands that are now performing very well in my Chorus-IIs, I had them in there for close to a year, during which time I found the upper midrange to be foreward and harsh. I doubt the caps were going the "burn in" at all .. just not enough voltage on them. After conditioning, the upper midrange completely smoothed out. Possibly, in some cases, simple burn-it will do the trick. Since I can't be sure, and don't have the equipment to verify, I now condition all crossover caps. tigerwoodKhorns A 5KOhm 1/4W or 1/5W resistor will do to discharge the a charged cap. Keep it on there for about 5 seconds. As for accelerated break in for an electrolytic, I can't think of anything. Anyway, the Black Gate mod is quite effective immediately. Further improvement addressing the same problem is use of a power line filter/isolator. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Where, BTW, is the best place to purchase Auricaps? I'm probably going to replace the coupling caps in my Fisher 440A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 2:28:16 AM DeanG wrote: No, I put a 7uF Auricap there. I was on the fence at the time about using bypass caps in networks. Since that time however I've run across plenty of additional info that leads me to believe there's some validity to it. At any rate, Al says it's a non-critical part of the circuit, so I would leave that section just the way it is. ---------------- Dean, Excuse my inexperience, but what is the advantage to having a bypass. If I were to use an upgraded cap in the tweeter section, would you reccomend a 7uF or a 6uF combined with a 1.0 uF Harmony? Will changing the value to 7 from 7.2 degrade any of the ALK's steady impedence presented to the amp? Is it worth it to add a 0.22 uF to ge back to 7.2 uF total? Leo, I may be misquoting you, are you saying that teh Hovlands in you Chorus's never broke in? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Leo, thanks. Interesting issue here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 fini, These PPT Thetas work very nicely for coupling circuits: Audiocap PPT Theta. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 2:02:21 PM 3dzapper wrote: fini, These PPT Thetas work very nicely for coupling circuits: Audiocap PPT Theta. Rick ---------------- Do I have to be in some sort of fraternity to order those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Sheesh, guys, wouldn't it be better spent in upgrading the drivers instead? But that's probably a bit more spendy... But I DO understand the concept of wanting to further hop-up the hot rod. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Chris, That's correct. I don't know if I was lucky and received a few real stubborn cases. But, I don't care to risk it again. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2005 Author Share Posted January 17, 2005 A little more spendy indeed! No point in changing the driver unless you go with a 2 incher, then you have to change the horn too. Then you get to mod the top hat, and then you have to ... jeesh ... forget it! Of course, If you just hack down the K-400/401 you end up with a nifty 300Hz horn. Then you can use something cool like the M-200 from Community Light and Sound. At any rate ... The true value for that position is 7uF. According to Al, over or under a little is no big deal. Most sell a 6.8uF, and Al just throws a .1uF on top of it. Nothing wrong with that. None of these caps are dead on anyways. Hell, you could probably just use a 6.8 by itself. Chances are, it'll end up being a 7 anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 4:11:56 PM DeanG wrote: A little more spendy indeed! No point in changing the driver unless you go with a 2 incher, then you have to change the horn too. Then you get to mod the top hat, and then you have to ... jeesh ... forget it! ---------------- Yeah, forgot about the K400 horn. Well, ain't that a B. What about CABLING?! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fgarib Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dean G and others, I've been trying to follow this and other posts about crossovers, and, frankly, am quite lost. I feel bad asking here because I'm completely novice at this, so where can I read about how much and what sort of a difference changing the crossovers really make? To give you an indication of the sorts of questions that I have: - What effect does it have on the sound? - What are auricaps? - I think the network in my KHorns are Type AA's. How do they compare to the seemingly superior ALK's. Do the letters mean anything or are they simply model number? Sorry to break this interesting discussion up... would just like to be a part of it, or at least understand some of it! -F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 4:05:45 PM leok wrote: Chris, That's correct. I don't know if I was lucky and received a few real stubborn cases. But, I don't care to risk it again. Leo ---------------- Leo, So how do you break in capacitors? From your response, I assume that I will need to do this to the Solens and Hovlands. AA Crossover Question: From what I gather, change the AA's to A's for cheap improvement. I attached a schematic, it is really simple. Because I am considering Type A's for my Belles (Home theater duty with a Denon receiver) I have a few questions: 1. CAn I use teh T2A from my AB Networks (does it even have a T2A)? 2. Should I just use a Solen 2.4 mH inductor? (Litz or solid wire)? 3. What type of caps shoudl be used? Can I just use Solen or Hovlands or will I need an "oil" cap? If I need oil caps, what do the expers here reccomend? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 4:11:56 PM DeanG wrote: At any rate ... The true value for that position is 7uF. According to Al, over or under a little is no big deal. Most sell a 6.8uF, and Al just throws a .1uF on top of it. Nothing wrong with that. None of these caps are dead on anyways. Hell, you could probably just use a 6.8 by itself. Chances are, it'll end up being a 7 anyways. ---------------- Dean, The schematic that I downloaded from Al's site shows a 6.2 uFd Solen with a 1 uFd HArmony. If I get crazy and decide to use a more expensive cap, should I use something close to 7uF and parallel a 0.1 uFd bypass cap or shoot for 6 uFd with a 1.0 uFd bypass? PS. I just picked up a piece of tigerwood for the boards!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Fauzi, Here is Al K's web site. Lots of information on his networks.ALK Engineering. At least a refreshing of the caps in your twenty something AAs would probably be in order. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Guys, I am interested in the difference the AuriCaps make. I think the 20+20 uF in place of the 39+bypass is probably an improvement. My first prototype used 20+20 "Zen" caps from North Creek Music. The losses at 17 KHz very from 0.25 - 0.35 dB from one set to another. This is probably the veriation in the Solen 39 uF. Even a 20+20 fastcap without the 1 uF Harmoney may even be an improvement. I am not sure. The 6+1 uF was done just to get 7 uF. It's the LEAST critical part in the network. I had one of my first customers put a 7 uF Hovland in there. He dould not hear the difference. BTW: "Conditioning" of caps is pure 100% B.S.! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 5:52:54 PM Al Klappenberger wrote: Guys, I am interested in the difference the AuriCaps make. I think the 20+20 uF in place of the 39+bypass is probably an improvement. My first prototype used 20+20 "Zen" caps from North Creek Music. The losses at 17 KHz very from 0.25 - 0.35 dB from one set to another. This is probably the veriation in the Solen 39 uF. Even a 20+20 fastcap without the 1 uF Harmoney may even be an improvement. I am not sure. The 6+1 uF was done just to get 7 uF. It's the LEAST critical part in the network. I had one of my first customers put a 7 uF Hovland in there. He dould not hear the difference. Al K. ---------------- Where can I get the Auricapps? Someone else had asked for a link earlier too. Will the Hovlands (yes four of 'em--$$$ --> ouch!!) make a big improvement over the Solens or Auricapps in this position? Al, What makes the tweeter position less critical? From the diagram, it seems that the 39 / 1 uF position is critical because it leads to the mid and tweeter. Is the 7.0 uF position less critical because the 39/1 uF and the subsequent Hovland 2.2 uF have already "shaved off" the lows? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Chris, To condition non-polarized caps, apply about 70V for a couple of seconds first in one direction, then the other. probably the safest setup is 8 9V batteries in series with a 5 KOhm resistor also in series. (Don't do this to electrolytic caps.). If you have a volt meter it's a good idea to verify that the caps do, in fact, charge. Based on my experience with Hovlands, I simply condition all caps before using them. I've had mixed results with cap technologies. PIO were the clear winner for me until I started conditioning the Hovlands. I went back to Hovlands in my Chorus-IIs after conditioning. In my RF-7s I replaced unconditioned Hovlands with PIO and love them. Haven't tried conditioned Hovlands in the RF-7s yet because 1) they sound so good with the PIOs and 2) they're a huge pain to work on because of what I had to do to install the PIOs. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 Chris, It's difficult to explain why the 7 uF is less criical, but if you experiment with the filter in the computer using the "tune" mose you will see that the components closer to the input side carry most of the filtering fuction. This is also an "observation" from tuning filters a mictowave frequency. Also, when making non-contiguous diplexers that do not have overlaping franges, its the components nearest the input that must be optimized. Al k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 17, 2005 Share Posted January 17, 2005 ---------------- On 1/17/2005 10:18:56 AM leok wrote: I conditioned the caps on Chris's crossovers, but he never mentioned if there was any noticeable change. Leo ---------------- Hi Leo, jeez, I thought I sent you a note on this. After returning home from your place and reinstalling the ALK's, I ran some "difficult" music through the Klipschorns (meaning music that I really didn't care for, recording-wise). I found that the conditioned crossovers smoothed things out a bit and seemed to take some of the distortion out of the recording. After installing the upsampler a few months later, the ball was again moved down the field. I definitely think there is something to the conditioning. It's a marginal improvement, but an improvement nonetheless. The edges of the music just seem a bit polished. Sorry for the analogy, but that seems to be about right. Leo conditioned both crossovers in about 20 minutes and it was a nice favor that he did for me. It's one that I'd recommend. Surely can't hurt! Thanks, Leo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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