bobsherman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 ---------------- On 5/15/2004 10:30:53 PM DeanG wrote: Bob -- where did I demean anybody's work? Are you referring to fact that I did not elevate Mike's work above everyone else's? Might I point out that it is actually you who are demeaning the work of another, in that you assume inferiority of the other transformer, and you have absolutely no basis or grounds on which to do so. You haven't seen them, measured them, used them in any amps, or actually compared them with the Magnequests. Have you considered the possibility that there might actually be someone with more experience and knowledge regarding transformers and their manufacture than Mike? ---------------- Here are two of your posts. I guess you forgot what you wrote. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Ah c'mon man, a "reissue" is still a "copy". I don't see how it can possibly matter whether you reverse engineer something to make a print or schematic, or use an original print. If it's wound the same way, measures the same, reacts the same way in the circuit, and produces the same end result -- it's "the same". ---------------------------------------------- I believe all the cloth-lead Dyna OPTs were made by G.G. Trusco in Philadelphia, whom to my knowledge was an industrial transformer company, just like thousands of others then and now with the capability to make transformers to a variety of specifications. Are "reissues" made on the same tools? Same wire? Same bobbins? Same steel? Probably not. My guess would be they are made to the same specifications, which are not hard to determine either on paper, or through some "reverse engineering" which I presume is meant to mean by measuring an original transformer and examining it's properties. Transformers - like patchcords - have developed a far greater metaphysical aura than is due them. Partly due to clever promotion by the holders of the root stock, and partly due to the smaller number of companies today who see HiFi OPTs as any kind of meaningful market or sales opportunity, and thus leave the field to a few boutique specialists. That's a good thing. I like to see specialists succeed. Industrial technology has improved a great deal since 1950. For one, computer software in both CAD and circuit emulation make possible now in minutes what was once a black art requiring weeks or months of trial and error build-test-revise schemes. And secondly, insdustrial control technology makes it possible for machinery to do a far more precise function than when "operator controlled." The finished wound transformer has properties which are all physical. They either ARE or ARE NOT correct to the specification and performance. The output tubes and loudspeakers which embrace the OPT know nothing of the loving mystical hands or cold computer-driven robots which gave birth to them. They know only the physics of the wire inside. I see no reason in fact or fancy why a modern transformer shop with CAD, modern tools and a desire to do so, couldn't produce such transformers that are either equal to, or better than any transformer made by any means in 1955. And, at a far lower cost. (A good OPT in 1950 was about a week's wages for an average man). But that wouldn't be a very romantic notion. It wouldn't feed our nostalgia, nor our quest for the possesion of artifacts and powers that no other person may have. That's a fun part of any hobby collecting secret knowledge - secret powers - rare artifacts, but in the practical sense, "...can I get a replacement transformer?" it is meaningless. The answer is yes you can. Any limitation in what is delivered is just your limitation in perceiving what to ask for. mdeneen ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ regards Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Only the first post is mine, the second is by Mark Deneen. At any rate, I don't see where either demeans or degrades Mike's efforts. Magnequest has an excellent reputation, but there are also other manufacturers, though not as well known -- who also do excellent work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsherman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 ---------------- On 5/15/2004 10:52:56 PM DeanG wrote: Only the first post is mine, the second is by Mark Deneen. At any rate, I don't see where either demeans or degrades Mike's efforts. Magnequest has an excellent reputation, but there are also other manufacturers, though not as well known -- who also do excellent work. ---------------- Excuse me for the error. Please tell us more about the NOS Valve transformers. What materials are used? Teflon? Are the leads Teflon? Are they impregnated? With what? I never said they were bad, just different. TIA. Regards Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I will have to defer the question to Craig. The only thing I know for certain is that they are exact replicas of the iron he pulled off of his early MK IIIs. By "Teflon", I assume you are referring to the covering on the leads? I know the original transformers had cloth covered leads, but I don't know what Craig's source is providing here. Since the copper is magnet wire, I wouldn't think the material used for the lead covering would be of any significance, since it's not actually in contact with the copper anyways. As far as the question related to "impregnation" goes, here I'm guessing you are asking if the transformers are potted -- which they are not. But then again, neither were the originals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 ---------------- On 5/15/2004 10:53:16 AM mdeneen wrote: Transformers - like patchcords - have developed a far greater metaphysical aura than is due them. Partly due to clever promotion by the holders of the root stock, and partly due to the smaller number of companies today who see HiFi OPTs as any kind of meaningful market or sales opportunity, and thus leave the field to a few boutique specialists. That's a good thing. I like to see specialists succeed. Industrial technology has improved a great deal since 1950. For one, computer software in both CAD and circuit emulation make possible now in minutes what was once a black art requiring weeks or months of trial and error build-test-revise schemes. And secondly, insdustrial control technology makes it possible for machinery to do a far more precise function than when "operator controlled." The finished wound transformer has properties which are all physical. They either ARE or ARE NOT correct to the specification and performance. The output tubes and loudspeakers which embrace the OPT know nothing of the loving mystical hands or cold computer-driven robots which gave birth to them. They know only the physics of the wire inside. I see no reason in fact or fancy why a modern transformer shop with CAD, modern tools and a desire to do so, couldn't produce such transformers that are either equal to, or better than any transformer made by any means in 1955. And, at a far lower cost. (A good OPT in 1950 was about a week's wages for an average man). mdeneen ---------------- I see one big reason why most industrial transformer companies won't give a damn about designing an OPT... A small market! I dont think any reason why a "generic" transformer winding would bother to do R&D to come up with a really good OPT that they would sell for cheap when they'll get much richer making line transformer for your doorbell. But as you say, they can do it if they want. Plitron is such a generic transformer maker that developped an audio line (mostly because the owner is an audionut). The result is an outstanding line of OPT. But its not cheap. Making them for cheap is another story. Especially since Hammond as the cheap OPT line well cornered. As for the metaphysical aura, I'm not sure about that. The specs of any OPT (metaphysical or not) are measurable. An OPT (or an IT) has good specs or not. For exemple, I did experiment with something you would probably describe as a metaphysical IT phase splitter. The critter happens to be flat up flat up to 100KHz. I'll take that kind of metaphysical any day of the week! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsherman Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 ---------------- On 5/15/2004 7:10:48 PM NOSValves wrote: Sunny, I agree with all you said except the he is Authorized there is no Authorization required buying some old prints and or equipment does not make you Authorized. Also I own a Set of his Transformers and have completely tested them against the ones I had made. I will not bother toot my pwn horn. The reason I had them made was strictly from a supply issue Mike is not willing to offer these in a reasonable and stable time frame. He is just about completely into his SET stuff and the special chokes. You can't even buy his Dynaco Iron reliably through his Authorized Dealers they don't have it. He is a great guy and knows his stuff for sure I have spoken to him and bought the set I have directly from him. He is just busy with other projects that evidently are more important, interesting or profitable to him. Craig ---------------- Where do you get your info from? Mike has stock of many Dyna output transformers, and if not in stock normal delivery time is 4 to 6 weeks. Mike has a very extensive catalog, (actually he offers a much wider range of products than either Peerless or Dyna did in the late 50s which was the heyday of tubes.) It is hard to keep everything in stock, but they are worth the wait. regards Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Okay Bob ripp them up 3 Dynaco reproductions and one original so where is the huge build quality difference ? Teflon coated silver wire 8" long ?? Boy that will be a show stopper in sound difference. I didn't play here I tested and retested on the bench and to the ear. The funny thing is the most expensive transformers I have go unused if they were truly better wouldn't you think I would have them in my own personal amps ?? One of these is real junk !! Learned that the hard way for sure what a waste of hard earned cash ! http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/' target=_blank> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 A sprited discussion about "boat anchors" with no flaming; how pleasant. But I am paying attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Craig, I can't remember -- what was it about that one that made it "junk"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Actually it would be much easier to tell you what wasn't wrong with it !! It actually was the same physical size Everything else was litterally horrible, nasty ringing on the top end, no bottom end response, vibrating, humming and so on. Complete junk. I was think of building you a set of amps with them I'm sure you would say they sound good LMAO !! Another problem with MQ is he will not provide power transformers any longer at least that is what he told me OT's only. I myself don't care to much for hammonds stuff. I was going to use there chokes until I bought a set 5H chokes and they measured 2H. Had my supplier custom make me some and they were able to meet my size requirements and DCR with a 10H choke for the same $. These people are top notch there only drawback is there cosemetics need some work there used to commercial apps. But there are willing to work with me on that issue. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobsherman Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 ---------------- On 5/16/2004 12:05:10 PM NOSValves wrote: Okay Bob ripp them up 3 Dynaco reproductions and one original so where is the huge build quality difference ? Teflon coated silver wire 8" long ?? Boy that will be a show stopper in sound difference. I didn't play here I tested and retested on the bench and to the ear. The funny thing is the most expensive transformers I have go unused if they were truly better wouldn't you think I would have them in my own personal amps ?? One of these is real junk !! Learned that the hard way for sure what a waste of hard earned cash ! http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/tran1.jpg" border=0> http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/tran2.jpg" border=0> http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/files/"' target=_blank> ---------------- How can anyone tell anything about how a trans in made by looking at the outside. That is a big problem, if you really do not know anything about transformers a winder can sell you anything. You ask someone to wind you a Dyna Mark III output transformer, you get something back, do you have any idea what is in it? Do you know if the winding pattern is like a Dyna at all? Clearly theese answers are no. That is why you have gotten some less that quality transformers back. People will wind you anything and tell you it is a Rolls when it is really a Yugo! regards Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painful Reality Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 ---------------- On 5/18/2004 4:09:34 AM bobsherman wrote: How can anyone tell anything about how a trans in made by looking at the outside. ---------------- I can tell you that the the leftmost one has been wound by a blind, one armed, gibbon. This guy is selling for cheap on eBay then making you wait up to more than one year for this pure kaka. The 3 others (from left to right, original Dynaco, Craig's winder and Magnequest ) show good workmanship. So, up to a point, yes you can at least judge the workmanship quality by the way the bobin is wound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 That was a fun read... I started with page one. My Welborne Labs Moondogs had Magnequest OPTs, and they sounded great. Then again, I never measured the amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 23 hours ago, Marvel said: That was a fun read... I started with page one. My Welborne Labs Moondogs had Magnequest OPTs, and they sounded great. Then again, I never measured the amps. Wow that was a blast for the past! I wonder if the Bob in this thread was Bob Latino? I suspect it was... if it is a really funny fact, in the end he ended up having his iron wound at the same place I did... Wish I knew for sure if it was him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 On 1/30/2024 at 8:59 AM, Schu said: X Schu, The MQ iron in your VRD's is very different than the iron being discussed here. I was challenged by Paul Hovenga that I couldn't improve the VRD so I challenged Mike to dig through his vault of designs and make me something better! The winding technique is completely different. The only thing in common is size and form factor. I could not tell you what all is technically different because Mike would not tell me. He just said try it, if you like it pay me if not send it back. Well, I paid him It took me hours of tuning the feedback circuit (lowering already low feedback) for that new iron. That Iron as you know sounds better! But it's hard to put into words how they sound better. He wound me up 4 total sets. I own one set, Paul Owns one set, You own one set originally built for Rodney and I built a new pair of amps for a friend of Paul's that I do not recall his name. It really is too bad Mike is no longer of this world! Cheers Craig 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 hours ago, NOSValves said: I wonder if the Bob in this thread was Bob Latino? The user name was BobSherman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 2 minutes ago, Marvel said: The user name was BobSherman Yeah well I seen that but people can name themselves anything they like. It just be a coincidence who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 True, he could have been making a joke about Bobby Sherman the singer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the real Duke Spinner Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Whaddabouts OTL amps. ?? I have something someplace. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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